Do the UK Military teach Vortex Ring?
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I was asked to comment on an Army Lynx crash too many years ago. No obvious cause for the crash, and after some sleuthing and drawing of wind directions and flight paths concluded that vortex ring state might be a cause. Looking at the rest of the evidence (witness statements of vibrations, non-responsiveness of controls, total length of damaged aircraft and parts less than 90 feet, etc) it became obvious that vortex ring state was probably the cause.
The fact that the official Army Board of Inquiry never considered it showed me that they probably didn't teach or understand it. Don't know what's happened since then.
(and the reason I was asked to comment was that the widow of the pilot was going to be denied her survivor pension because, in the BOI's view, the pilot was responsible for the machine crashing - since the BOI hadn't considered VRS, and the pilot probably had not been trained to recognize it, how could he be at fault??? - she got the pension)
The fact that the official Army Board of Inquiry never considered it showed me that they probably didn't teach or understand it. Don't know what's happened since then.
(and the reason I was asked to comment was that the widow of the pilot was going to be denied her survivor pension because, in the BOI's view, the pilot was responsible for the machine crashing - since the BOI hadn't considered VRS, and the pilot probably had not been trained to recognize it, how could he be at fault??? - she got the pension)
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was shown incipient stages and recovery as part of PPL and CPL, surprised by the number of people that have questioned this on this thread, I believe it is a standard part of the syllabus in most flight schools....shocked if it isn't
tea, coffee, incipient VR state, recovery, tea coffee, all part of a days work?
tea, coffee, incipient VR state, recovery, tea coffee, all part of a days work?
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yep,
instructors that teach kids to go out and operate close to the ground in their working life - I think that's nearly everyone - well if they don't teach them how to stay away from the ground - well they want their backsides kicked until their nose bleeds.
Especially where it relates to the "subtle hazards of light winds" which Sasless has remarked upon.
Like i say, if you really stuff it up, and pick up you own dirty air for a bit of freefall VRS, you'll usually only ever go about eighty feet before the pucka factor saves you, but if you start at fifty feet - well it's really only the last thirty that will hurt eh!
if you don't get a reaction from a student on that one I suggest going back for the coffee - again - and another student.
instructors that teach kids to go out and operate close to the ground in their working life - I think that's nearly everyone - well if they don't teach them how to stay away from the ground - well they want their backsides kicked until their nose bleeds.
Especially where it relates to the "subtle hazards of light winds" which Sasless has remarked upon.
Like i say, if you really stuff it up, and pick up you own dirty air for a bit of freefall VRS, you'll usually only ever go about eighty feet before the pucka factor saves you, but if you start at fifty feet - well it's really only the last thirty that will hurt eh!
if you don't get a reaction from a student on that one I suggest going back for the coffee - again - and another student.
But there again, we brief, but don't demonstrate Retreating Blade stall, Dynamic Rollover, Jackstall, Engine Off Landings with twin engined helis, etc, etc, etc.................Never understood the reason for demoing incipient stage. Most of the instructors I flew with didn't get the parameters right so the demo wasn't convincing. A good brief (and a look at some of the video clips or VR close to the ground) is sufficient (IMHO).
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I demonstrate the inital stages of dynamic rollover, ie purposely put the stick off centre before lifting off and point out to the student that one skid lifts up, and they should reduce lever and try again.
Frank said at the factory course (or in the safety the video, can't remember which) that it is not possible to get the R22 into retreating blade stall.
I still think it's important to demo initial VRS and how to get out of it as it's a lot easier/more common than jack stall/twin engine failure/retreating blade stall.
A pilot can easily fall into VRS, eg when taking friends/photographer for a ride, 'oh look there's my house, can you slow down? just a bit more, that's it, great, hover here, eh? what's happening, sh*t!' etc etc.
Frank said at the factory course (or in the safety the video, can't remember which) that it is not possible to get the R22 into retreating blade stall.
I still think it's important to demo initial VRS and how to get out of it as it's a lot easier/more common than jack stall/twin engine failure/retreating blade stall.
A pilot can easily fall into VRS, eg when taking friends/photographer for a ride, 'oh look there's my house, can you slow down? just a bit more, that's it, great, hover here, eh? what's happening, sh*t!' etc etc.
I'm with Olsbeefer on the VRS - We've also seen pictures of a fair few robbo's on their sides over the last few years, maybe too many demos of (incipient)dynamic rollover gone wrong!
Was certainly taught and shown incipient vortex ring at wallop in basic rotary in 1988 !
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Jul 2008 at 15:24.
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If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure then you should at least be shown the High possibility Vortex ring..both will kill you in an instant
SL
SL
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Do The UK Military teach Vortex Ring?
As an ex-Wasp pilot I can well imagine the VRS Scout disappearing out of camera shot very quickly. It was demonstrated to us in type training & required as a part of annual competency, purely because the aircraft lost so much altitude sooooo quickly.
Even so, the first time I saw it for real (B206L1 on a Pacific Is at sea level & sufficiently below mauw) it was all over in the blink of an eye, the ground rose extremely quickly & the bang at the bottom was hard. I flew it away several days later after the engineers had had their tuppence worth.
As a result, I've included the exercise in every type rating & for every PPL/CPL, R22, B206, H300/500, AS350, UH1/204/205/212/222, AH1 Scout etc - as a part of FTH, topping check, RBS, high altitude handling etc. Don't know that I'd like to do it at some of the low altitudes mentioned here though - once bitten, twice shy.
Even so, the first time I saw it for real (B206L1 on a Pacific Is at sea level & sufficiently below mauw) it was all over in the blink of an eye, the ground rose extremely quickly & the bang at the bottom was hard. I flew it away several days later after the engineers had had their tuppence worth.
As a result, I've included the exercise in every type rating & for every PPL/CPL, R22, B206, H300/500, AS350, UH1/204/205/212/222, AH1 Scout etc - as a part of FTH, topping check, RBS, high altitude handling etc. Don't know that I'd like to do it at some of the low altitudes mentioned here though - once bitten, twice shy.
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A mere 4000'.......
I had a practical demonstration by accident over Belfast in the 90's. In the hover at 9000' my co-pilot fell asleep on me whilst handling and I didn't notice. We lost 4000' before recovery...
GF
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Don't know that I'd like to do it at some of the low altitudes mentioned here though -
I don't practic them at low altitudes, and all my work, demo's, training for similarly tasked people etc. is in small machines that one has to cajole around at low level, for various reasons.
I do show and insist on hands on with moving into and out of one's own downwash in the downwind direction - at ten feet or so skid height, to pick up and demonstrate the incipient shudders, so to speak.
Having power is reserve is essential and demonstrating the flicking out of the incipient stage is easier at that height I've found.
All the real (drop like a stone) demos are done at plus 2000 feet from every which way, and a watchful eye by the student must initially be kept on not only the VSI, but also the altimeter. Amazing how it can flick 80 to 120 feet downwards and then stabilize. Hence the saying, don't do this below 80 feet, or ever.
I have no problem believing that the downward velocity of a much heavier machine in VRS would take much more airspace to arrest than a mere eighty feet.
May I say in relation to the below quote;
If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure
I don't actually go for EOL's because one day it might fail, even though it is a large part of the verbal side traffic.
The main reason is because it IS a lesson in finality which couples absolute self disciplne. Therefore I reckon it demonsatrates the basic aspect of - think before you leap - and do so in a calculated fashion.
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We were certainly taught it on the Sea King OCU when I went through as a student. We were not taught it at Shawbury. When I returned some years later on the Sea King OCU we taught it as part of the height climb sortie [10,000ft] but again only to the incipient stage. I think the early sorties teaching it were very much along the lines of " Did you see it? No! Right lets go home?" I am pretty sure it was taken out of the syllabus not too long after though?
like Crabb, I have only encountered it [for real] when others have put me into to it inadvertently. What I did find was that sat in the co-pilot seat because you had expereinced it you could see it building and warn people. The most famous last words were " no chance, not in this old bus ....... oooooh!" - You know who you are! Falklands, 2000ft over the airfield! - and how low did we go!
[I am sure we introdcued CRM training just after this!!!]
like Crabb, I have only encountered it [for real] when others have put me into to it inadvertently. What I did find was that sat in the co-pilot seat because you had expereinced it you could see it building and warn people. The most famous last words were " no chance, not in this old bus ....... oooooh!" - You know who you are! Falklands, 2000ft over the airfield! - and how low did we go!
[I am sure we introdcued CRM training just after this!!!]
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I have practical experience of this. During the latter part of the 80s I was on task over Belfast,with some of the you know whos, doing you know what.Arriving back in the the high hover (after a racing refuel at Palace bks)and over the less salubrious parts of west Belfast, it all went a bit "Pete Tong". High auw 1800kgs (or thereabouts) in a Gazelle, low airspeed, high power setting, light winds aloft (10kts or so). Suddenly it didn't feel right, and concurrent with that thought, the VSI went almost instantaneously beyond the vertical - downwards !.
Oh Bum. Did two things pretty much simultaneously, cyclic forward, and dumped the collective. The aircraft pitched over slooooowly, and airspeed began to build - slooowly. However West Belfast grew very quickly in the windscreen, interesting details like nails in roof slates, worn tyres on cars, man scratching bum etc.
Chappie in LHS asked me what I was doing (not an unreasonable question) as he was fully expecting to be eyeballing "Bill Baddie", and not the rapidly approaching road features, and general lack of hospitality that the local residents had against her majestys government - at that time.
Bottom line. Fell about a thousand feet, recovered, staggered back up to task, genuine white knuckles.
Post task, had a cup of tea - and got a bit introspective.
Root cause - Rushed approach to task.
What saved me. Demo of said condition in basic rotary (1983 at MW), and stall practice in "Chippies"
Not big, not clever.
Stay safe
Oh Bum. Did two things pretty much simultaneously, cyclic forward, and dumped the collective. The aircraft pitched over slooooowly, and airspeed began to build - slooowly. However West Belfast grew very quickly in the windscreen, interesting details like nails in roof slates, worn tyres on cars, man scratching bum etc.
Chappie in LHS asked me what I was doing (not an unreasonable question) as he was fully expecting to be eyeballing "Bill Baddie", and not the rapidly approaching road features, and general lack of hospitality that the local residents had against her majestys government - at that time.
Bottom line. Fell about a thousand feet, recovered, staggered back up to task, genuine white knuckles.
Post task, had a cup of tea - and got a bit introspective.
Root cause - Rushed approach to task.
What saved me. Demo of said condition in basic rotary (1983 at MW), and stall practice in "Chippies"
Not big, not clever.
Stay safe
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The AAC used to teach it on the basic course at Middle Wallop, and then reinforce the lessons for those boys in NI who sat at night in the hover over Belfast. However, the RAF controlled Defence Helicopter Flying School started in 1997 using the old 2FTS syllabus, and the lesson was not replicated. Anyway, it is probably an impossible state to get into with a light weight Squirrel.
2. I wouldn't bank on it and the Squirrels aren't always 'light weight'!
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Burr
Good account and I had a similar experience flying night EMS in Sussex.
BO105, hover at night to recce landing site on FLIR , then commence usual steep approach down the Nightsun beam. Started 1500 feet. Eyes out of the cockpit too long looking at the site. Slack wind and realised that with a high collective setting we were starting to descend rapidly. The usual Bolkow hover vibes were more than normal and glanced inside to see the VSI not looking healthy. Same recovery procedure; dumped the lever and nosed forward. recovered below 500 feet and flew away to re-position. A few seconds more and it would have been a different story.
We were shown incipient VR on Whirlwinds in 1977 at Shawbury. Up to 10,000 feet, quick demo. As others have said "There it was, did you feel it?!". Followed by an autorotation back to the airfield from the overhead. Everyone undershot for some reason despite the easy starting height!
I don't believe I gained much from the demo but a good briefing and having the frighteners put on you by an instructor has to be good value
Good account and I had a similar experience flying night EMS in Sussex.
BO105, hover at night to recce landing site on FLIR , then commence usual steep approach down the Nightsun beam. Started 1500 feet. Eyes out of the cockpit too long looking at the site. Slack wind and realised that with a high collective setting we were starting to descend rapidly. The usual Bolkow hover vibes were more than normal and glanced inside to see the VSI not looking healthy. Same recovery procedure; dumped the lever and nosed forward. recovered below 500 feet and flew away to re-position. A few seconds more and it would have been a different story.
We were shown incipient VR on Whirlwinds in 1977 at Shawbury. Up to 10,000 feet, quick demo. As others have said "There it was, did you feel it?!". Followed by an autorotation back to the airfield from the overhead. Everyone undershot for some reason despite the easy starting height!
I don't believe I gained much from the demo but a good briefing and having the frighteners put on you by an instructor has to be good value
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Any helicopter can get into vortex ring state when the induced velocity from the rotor equals the rate of descent (or air coming up into the rotor)
A low power setting and the start of a descent can give the symptoms at very low airspeed in no wind or tailwind. An aggressive quickstop with a power pull at the end as the airspeed comes to zero can give the symptoms.
Not just in a hover and vertical descent at high rates of descent.
A low power setting and the start of a descent can give the symptoms at very low airspeed in no wind or tailwind. An aggressive quickstop with a power pull at the end as the airspeed comes to zero can give the symptoms.
Not just in a hover and vertical descent at high rates of descent.
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If you spend hours training for the remote possibility of engine failure then you should at least be shown the High possibility Vortex ring..both will kill you in an instant
VRS had been a bit of topic in several threads over the pas couple of years, and there have been plenty of doubting Thomas's.
But here, and the reason why is summed up by Shawn Coyle, there is an obvious and very strong cadre of very converted people, especially instructors.
Great. I wish the rest would join, it is such a simple excercise and extremely cheap insurance.
All it would need is for a common sense approach to a universal curriculum for ab-initio training.
On a more sober note perhaps an interpretation of agenda item (article) 12 of the Chicago convention could enforce the safety aspect of such training???
just a thought, bit deep maybe? The safety objectives of Article 44, could also be looked at.
cheers tet
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"Pies"
The entry into these conditions can be subtle, almost innocuous, but the rate of departure from the flight envolope (almost) is startlingly quick. I would guess that we were both comfortable and well practised in what we were doing on our respective days. And I am sure we are very grateful for the talents of those older and wiser who taught us early in our careers.
BS
The entry into these conditions can be subtle, almost innocuous, but the rate of departure from the flight envolope (almost) is startlingly quick. I would guess that we were both comfortable and well practised in what we were doing on our respective days. And I am sure we are very grateful for the talents of those older and wiser who taught us early in our careers.
BS
