Dolly landing gone wrong.
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My helicopter is hangared at a small "helicopter only runway" at our airport. . . . . . . . there are at least 65 turbine helicopters in that place, 6 hangars lined up on a 1/4 of a mile stretch, and NOT A SINGLE DOLLY, are they really necessary??????
Dolly's are convinient, for who? At the expense of safety?
I don't have a problem landing on them, but even with 1000's of hours one of the few times I have been close to having an accident was after I had landed on a dolly, SOMEONE FORGOT TO CHOCK THE WHEELS AND THE DOLLY STARTED ROLLING AFTER I WAS AT FLIGHT IDLE, BY THE TIME THE DOLLY STOPPED THE HELICOTER HAD STOPPED ITSELF WITH THE NOSE, AGAINST A TRACTOR!! FORTUNATELY NOT THE ROTOR AGAINST THE HANGAR.
Dolly's are convinient, for who? At the expense of safety?
I don't have a problem landing on them, but even with 1000's of hours one of the few times I have been close to having an accident was after I had landed on a dolly, SOMEONE FORGOT TO CHOCK THE WHEELS AND THE DOLLY STARTED ROLLING AFTER I WAS AT FLIGHT IDLE, BY THE TIME THE DOLLY STOPPED THE HELICOTER HAD STOPPED ITSELF WITH THE NOSE, AGAINST A TRACTOR!! FORTUNATELY NOT THE ROTOR AGAINST THE HANGAR.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 21st Jun 2008 at 15:22.
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My untrained eye thinks it sees ground resonance develope there, and I can certainly appreciate how that could wiggle the helicopter off the side of the dolly, beyond the control of the pilot.
Mine too. Easy to say from here, but perhaps an early hop back up was the answer when it first kicked? Watch it over at full size in Real Player... looks like he lifted off with a lot of left pedal on. You can see what he's doing with the stick too.
Just glad I've not got near to doing this... yet
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MALC
The Hiller picture you show the wheels are meant to be removed so I am surprised if you flew it with them attatched, intentionally anyway.........
I land my Hiller on a dolly all the time and this guy has my sympathy.
The Hiller picture you show the wheels are meant to be removed so I am surprised if you flew it with them attatched, intentionally anyway.........
I land my Hiller on a dolly all the time and this guy has my sympathy.
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They are right bias arent they - seems to me like he pulled/jerked and aplied no right pedal hence the swivel and he probably dropped it as a natural correction and that left it - where it lay. Not sure if the speed of the flash player plays faster than real but he does seem to be rushing - hope he wasnt being pushed by ATC's or some other reason. Would you agree the conditions look perfect !! 
As a helicopter mechanic and not a pilot, I hope my opinion wont be dismissed out of hand here. Yes I know I should be haunting the engineers board, but there just aren't many rotary wing topics for me to opine on.
I do not care for dollies for a few reasons. Doing maint. perched on ladders all day sucks. Smaller dollies do not allow for positioning of proper work stands, and even on the larger ones it can get dodgy. Then you have the added annoyance of having to continually get off the ladder, off the dolly, to your toolbox get the tool you need climb up the dolly and then the ladder to get to where you are working. Hard on the old back and knees on those long shifts in the summer heat. Then you have to have another piece of GSE like a tractor or tug to move the dollies, and the dollies themselves to keep in proper working order. Thats more kit I have to maintain...and I have enough on my plate already.
I work for a company that has used Paravion heliporters for B3's, L3's, L4's, 407's and Enstrom 480's for almost 10 years. Our pilots are trained on the heliporters and are tasked to move aircraft in and out of the hangar for flights, unless we have a maintenance job, then the mechs do it. I am pleased with the performance of the Heliporter. Low maintenance (other than routine servicing of batteries, lubing the grease fittings, and the occasional replacement of a battery charger,bad battery, worn out drive tire or broken control cable (really rare) they are close to bullet proof.)
Yes you do need to be careful that you position the porter correctly before you lift the aircraft, and that if you dont plug it in from time to time the batteries will be dead when you go to use it and you will be stuck using ground handling wheels. Another plus is that if you have multiple aircraft types and heliporters and one of your heliporters goes tango uniform, all you have to do is move some lift pegs from one porter to the other and you are back in the business of moving aircraft. The lights on the porter and the optional APU plug are just icing on the cake.
Thank you for your time
I do not care for dollies for a few reasons. Doing maint. perched on ladders all day sucks. Smaller dollies do not allow for positioning of proper work stands, and even on the larger ones it can get dodgy. Then you have the added annoyance of having to continually get off the ladder, off the dolly, to your toolbox get the tool you need climb up the dolly and then the ladder to get to where you are working. Hard on the old back and knees on those long shifts in the summer heat. Then you have to have another piece of GSE like a tractor or tug to move the dollies, and the dollies themselves to keep in proper working order. Thats more kit I have to maintain...and I have enough on my plate already.
I work for a company that has used Paravion heliporters for B3's, L3's, L4's, 407's and Enstrom 480's for almost 10 years. Our pilots are trained on the heliporters and are tasked to move aircraft in and out of the hangar for flights, unless we have a maintenance job, then the mechs do it. I am pleased with the performance of the Heliporter. Low maintenance (other than routine servicing of batteries, lubing the grease fittings, and the occasional replacement of a battery charger,bad battery, worn out drive tire or broken control cable (really rare) they are close to bullet proof.)
Yes you do need to be careful that you position the porter correctly before you lift the aircraft, and that if you dont plug it in from time to time the batteries will be dead when you go to use it and you will be stuck using ground handling wheels. Another plus is that if you have multiple aircraft types and heliporters and one of your heliporters goes tango uniform, all you have to do is move some lift pegs from one porter to the other and you are back in the business of moving aircraft. The lights on the porter and the optional APU plug are just icing on the cake.
Thank you for your time
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007, as you should know............you pull out the pin, turn the wheels upwards with a long metal pole, and put the pin back in. Off you fly, do the reverse when landed................
I have never tried a dolly landing and this guy gets my sympathy..........
I have never tried a dolly landing and this guy gets my sympathy..........
years ago when I was doing my PPL(H), I had the opportunity to land a 206 on a dolly a few times. Nearly always a fair tail wind, near hangars and a very narrow dolly. I can't put into words how stressful I found it. Used to get very tense on the controls and sweat like hell. My instructor used to talk me down and wouldn't follow through on the controls. Said I could manage without his help. Not something I liked at all, then, a couple of years ago was doing a survey job in a 206, having to land on a raised wooden platform due to ground conditions being less than perfect. Platform was 'just' the width of the skids. I landed and one of the skids was ever so slightly off to one side, and of course it caught as I tried to lift and re-position. Bloody x-winds!! 
About as close as i've come to rolling one over and it happens so so quickly. Only a bruised ego and a new pair of shorts required that time!
Surely if you can afford a helicopter, you can afford a heli-mover??
ps, agree that proper helicopters have wheels!!
About as close as i've come to rolling one over and it happens so so quickly. Only a bruised ego and a new pair of shorts required that time! Surely if you can afford a helicopter, you can afford a heli-mover??
ps, agree that proper helicopters have wheels!!
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I learned in S300's on dollys. From the very beginning I was nervous, and never did get completely over it. It was a luxury if the student before me would leave the helicopter on the grass instead! I suppose that it made me better pilot. The log pad work in the mountains did seem kinda easy after the dolly. Not that there was any more landing area, but there was not a hangar right in front of me, and an expensive B206 right beside me! I won't be sorry if I don't need to use a dolly again, but I suppose that it is part of complete training.
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My sympathies to any "dolly" operators. When I operated a Twin Squirrel for a well known UK Retailer we commissioned a dolly to supplement the one man band operation.
My first landing, at night, (downwind Force 6) frightened me S*******S. I decided to couple up my Ford Sierra (1988 - what a year) to the 50mm ball (prime mover) to give me a forward reference.
I used to line up, the right roof gutter with the aerial and it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
It proves you cannot hover by reference to the chin bubble. Some years later I was trying to land G-OITN on the very same dolly. The one on which I had scores of landings. Without the Sierra, or equivalent, it was a nightmare all over again.
One famous dolly incident on the North Sea involved a Bell 212 G-BFER. It became known as "Echo Rollover" - it never flew straight after the rebuild!
Happy Days!
UG
My first landing, at night, (downwind Force 6) frightened me S*******S. I decided to couple up my Ford Sierra (1988 - what a year) to the 50mm ball (prime mover) to give me a forward reference.
I used to line up, the right roof gutter with the aerial and it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
It proves you cannot hover by reference to the chin bubble. Some years later I was trying to land G-OITN on the very same dolly. The one on which I had scores of landings. Without the Sierra, or equivalent, it was a nightmare all over again.
One famous dolly incident on the North Sea involved a Bell 212 G-BFER. It became known as "Echo Rollover" - it never flew straight after the rebuild!
Happy Days!
UG
Originally Posted by Upland Goose
One famous dolly incident on the North Sea involved a Bell 212 G-BFER. It became known as "Echo Rollover" - it never flew straight after the rebuild!
Same with their fire fighting rig, which wouldn't reach the second helideck, which (of course) was where the rollover occured 
ISTR the driver needed a medicinal Scotch or two after the rescue 
Re the argument for/against landing trolleys: I had three trolleys and one 'heliporter'. The limitations on the heliporter were far more restrictive than the trolleys, as many underfuselage attachments prevented the heliporter fitting underneath, eg camera mounts, antennae, fog lights (for frost work). Skin damage with the arms not lining up with the crossbars happened with monotonous regularity
If the trolley is built properly with a metre each side greater than the skid width plus a metre at the front and back longer than the skids, there should be ample visual cues. All my trolleys met these criteria, and I didn't find a great deal of an issue. Parking into the prevailing wind is also a given, why anyone would not do so is beyond me: a problem of their own making! If the wind shifts before landing, get the trolley moved before you land on it
Just about all the issues that I've encountered with trolleys have been because they were built too small, and gave little or no visual cues to the pilot. Some years back, the Queensland premier (Jo BP) learnt to fly helicopters, and insisted on flying the Government Squirrel. Rumour has it that in order to discourage him, the trolley was built with minimal clearance all round. Unfortunately he handled it admirably, so the pilots then had to contend with a trolley with only a few inches clearance on a daily basis, much to their regret
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When I first started flying, the 300 I flew was kept on a cart. Pretty good
sized one, too, but it was always a sweaty experience for me. I just
started working part time for a guy flying a 206 that is on a cart. Not
much room for error. Instead of hovering over it and setting it down, he
told me to just make a mini approach to it. When the tongue of the
cart appears in the right spot in the chin bubble, set it down. Works like
a charm every time. Even when the line guys put it downwind.
To the poster that called the accident pilot incompetent: Whenever
someone makes a mistake, are they incompetent? No, I would say that
makes them human. Careless, maybe, but not incompetent. Maybe the
pilot is incompetent, but I wouldn't say that from looking at that video.
I don't know the guy.
sized one, too, but it was always a sweaty experience for me. I just
started working part time for a guy flying a 206 that is on a cart. Not
much room for error. Instead of hovering over it and setting it down, he
told me to just make a mini approach to it. When the tongue of the
cart appears in the right spot in the chin bubble, set it down. Works like
a charm every time. Even when the line guys put it downwind.
To the poster that called the accident pilot incompetent: Whenever
someone makes a mistake, are they incompetent? No, I would say that
makes them human. Careless, maybe, but not incompetent. Maybe the
pilot is incompetent, but I wouldn't say that from looking at that video.
I don't know the guy.
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We land our AS350/AS355 on the Trolly/Dolly. Granted it takes a bit more caution then it does landing on a pad alone (which we do also) but with a self brief before parking it seems to help.
I and the other pilots here use the chin bubble and the mirror to confirm where we are placed on it as we are landing.
In my mind there is not a lot of differance to landing on a trolly/Dolly then there is doing a toe in/pinnacle landing/ hover exit etc etc. Care has to be taken in all aspects of these operations.
About the pilot involved....good Kiwi (Toyota) expression comes to me..
Bugger me! Chin up buddy, **** happens.
Hughesy
I and the other pilots here use the chin bubble and the mirror to confirm where we are placed on it as we are landing.
In my mind there is not a lot of differance to landing on a trolly/Dolly then there is doing a toe in/pinnacle landing/ hover exit etc etc. Care has to be taken in all aspects of these operations.
About the pilot involved....good Kiwi (Toyota) expression comes to me..
Bugger me! Chin up buddy, **** happens.
Hughesy
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Landing on a dolly demands extra concentration, no doubt about that. But I believe that the problems often caused by the dolly being too small. Larger dollies is more forgiving.
RD
RD
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tolerance
An important thing is planning, includes construction (point taken John E) and never under estimate training.
Check out this one. The pilot never realised just how far forward he was until he went to get out. (Not me)
The other thing to remember is that a trolley designed for one type might not be suitable for another.
Check out this one. The pilot never realised just how far forward he was until he went to get out.
(Not me)The other thing to remember is that a trolley designed for one type might not be suitable for another.
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CYHeli,
The position of the R44 in the above picture is absolutely fine as far as CG positioning goes.
Usually I would expect the opposite when landing the 44 on a tight spot (i:e pilot landing with the skids too far back).
As has been previously stated, I cannot understand why people need to use dollies when other safer options exist - their use seems unnecessarily stressful and dangerous.
Wheels and helimover have served me well for 6 years.
No plans to change anytime soon.
SB
The position of the R44 in the above picture is absolutely fine as far as CG positioning goes.
Usually I would expect the opposite when landing the 44 on a tight spot (i:e pilot landing with the skids too far back).
As has been previously stated, I cannot understand why people need to use dollies when other safer options exist - their use seems unnecessarily stressful and dangerous.
Wheels and helimover have served me well for 6 years.
No plans to change anytime soon.
SB
According to eye witnesses the poor pilot hooked in the on the left skidend mounted snow pad under the dolly after leaving the dolly with the left gear and while turning to the left.
Dollylanding is as safe or as dangerous like other helicopter ops. In every minute of helicopterflying the pilot should be ready and concentrated to master the situation or better stayed in bed.
This guy hammered the ship on the dolly like our plank friends say with "positive touchdown". Yes thats the correct way, but only to break the gear. Should be interesting to see this guy placing the helicopter on a small ridge or mountain spot.
This is only an other human error, nothing to do with the "dangerous" dolly.
Dollylanding is as safe or as dangerous like other helicopter ops. In every minute of helicopterflying the pilot should be ready and concentrated to master the situation or better stayed in bed.
This guy hammered the ship on the dolly like our plank friends say with "positive touchdown". Yes thats the correct way, but only to break the gear. Should be interesting to see this guy placing the helicopter on a small ridge or mountain spot.
This is only an other human error, nothing to do with the "dangerous" dolly.
Last edited by tecpilot; 23rd Jun 2008 at 19:35.
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I Can only sympathize with the pilot. Dolly landings are always "interesting". In the squirrel I found to open my door allows me better referrence.
Good luck chap! Its difficult on the best days.
Good luck chap! Its difficult on the best days.