SARH to go
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Crab, a quick off the top of the head response. I think the public will not notice any change when the SAR job is taken off your hands. They are after all the main 'users'. The crews, of whatever former uniform, will do the expert job they have been doing for many years now, even those poor beknighted souls who have been promoted from the LH seat. They are just as experienced as your lads/ladies, get the same training as the RH seat driver etc etc ad nauseam.
I don't care who is driving, as long as the bloke on the wire is safe and gets me up on that hook.
A GH sortie, a day/night SAR role sortie and an IRT in terms of flying checks and all done, I would suspect, in one visit by the TRE.
No, that is not what I mean.
A Cert of Test encompasses a whole miscellany of emergencies, single engine work, tail rotor failure, all the good things, pretty much what you probably do.
Yes the SAR day night check is probably the same or similar to yours.
The IRT is done alternately ie incorporates the IF base check. The IF base check includes more emergencies than the IRT especially if conducted in the Simulator while off island. Yes I know you hold an IR, but using it every day within a busy zone is another matter entirely, to the blokes working out of Aberdeen and worldwide it isn't a 'get me out of trouble' ticket; the attitude which prevailed about the service instrument rating many years ago. I accept times and attitudes have changed with the advent of better instrumentation and nav aids.
The checks are usually done by an on-site IRE/TRE (Instrument rating examiner/ Type rating examiner), or by a visiting standards examiner or the type chief pilot who will monitor the whole operation for efficiency and quality usually over a period of a week or ten days, he or she will stand in for one of the pilots. Just what you would expect. So the environment is one that should be familiar to you, except there is little if any deference; respect, yes for everybody, because the success of each flight depends on everybody doing their job to the best of their ability. Forelock tugging no. I'd recommend it to anybody.
A quick one on working in an IFR environment when Aberdeen was busy. When it's the middle of winter, it's snowing, the cloud base is down and there are helicopters mixing it with stiff wings for both the ILS and the SIDs, with 12 helicopters waiting to line up, some of which have to return to top up their fuel loads; then it's IFR with a vengeance. Fascinating work, not to be derided or sneered at. Some find/found it monotonous, I suppose experience and familiarity does that. Nonetheless it requires knowledge and skill. Just like hurling a small 61 around on the end of a winchop.
I don't care who is driving, as long as the bloke on the wire is safe and gets me up on that hook.
A GH sortie, a day/night SAR role sortie and an IRT in terms of flying checks and all done, I would suspect, in one visit by the TRE.
No, that is not what I mean.
A Cert of Test encompasses a whole miscellany of emergencies, single engine work, tail rotor failure, all the good things, pretty much what you probably do.
Yes the SAR day night check is probably the same or similar to yours.
The IRT is done alternately ie incorporates the IF base check. The IF base check includes more emergencies than the IRT especially if conducted in the Simulator while off island. Yes I know you hold an IR, but using it every day within a busy zone is another matter entirely, to the blokes working out of Aberdeen and worldwide it isn't a 'get me out of trouble' ticket; the attitude which prevailed about the service instrument rating many years ago. I accept times and attitudes have changed with the advent of better instrumentation and nav aids.
The checks are usually done by an on-site IRE/TRE (Instrument rating examiner/ Type rating examiner), or by a visiting standards examiner or the type chief pilot who will monitor the whole operation for efficiency and quality usually over a period of a week or ten days, he or she will stand in for one of the pilots. Just what you would expect. So the environment is one that should be familiar to you, except there is little if any deference; respect, yes for everybody, because the success of each flight depends on everybody doing their job to the best of their ability. Forelock tugging no. I'd recommend it to anybody.
A quick one on working in an IFR environment when Aberdeen was busy. When it's the middle of winter, it's snowing, the cloud base is down and there are helicopters mixing it with stiff wings for both the ILS and the SIDs, with 12 helicopters waiting to line up, some of which have to return to top up their fuel loads; then it's IFR with a vengeance. Fascinating work, not to be derided or sneered at. Some find/found it monotonous, I suppose experience and familiarity does that. Nonetheless it requires knowledge and skill. Just like hurling a small 61 around on the end of a winchop.
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seniority with the company
Zalt - even if it is CHC just moving from the interim contract to the new one? I remain to be convinced on that one. Plus I suspect that TUPE rights will have an effect for whoever goes from CHC to the new company - maybe it will be new contracts and terms of employment all round but I won't be surprised if it isn't.
Bootneck - you are right, for some areas there will be no discernable change but in the overland SAR environment (which is a big percentage of our rescues) , the experience lies predominantly with the military, especially at night and in multi aircraft ops. Now I know you will argue that the new contract is supposed to provide NVG capability but the interim contract was supposed to provide long range SAR aircraft and it clearly hasn't - the training bill for civvy crews for NVG will be very big and the CAA still don't appear to have sanctioned it anyway.
As for the winchmen - most of them are ex mil and any new contract will have to set up a training system so like the existing RAF one that it seems pointless to replace it.
Mark my words, if SARH goes ahead in its present guise, the uniforms will change and the aircraft will change - the experience level and quantity of training will reduce and the capability will be eroded - it will be glossed over by company and MCA spin doctors but it will happen.
Bootneck - you are right, for some areas there will be no discernable change but in the overland SAR environment (which is a big percentage of our rescues) , the experience lies predominantly with the military, especially at night and in multi aircraft ops. Now I know you will argue that the new contract is supposed to provide NVG capability but the interim contract was supposed to provide long range SAR aircraft and it clearly hasn't - the training bill for civvy crews for NVG will be very big and the CAA still don't appear to have sanctioned it anyway.
As for the winchmen - most of them are ex mil and any new contract will have to set up a training system so like the existing RAF one that it seems pointless to replace it.
Mark my words, if SARH goes ahead in its present guise, the uniforms will change and the aircraft will change - the experience level and quantity of training will reduce and the capability will be eroded - it will be glossed over by company and MCA spin doctors but it will happen.
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Crab,
They'll be plenty of positions for ex military crews within SAR-H. There are only 4 MCA bases and 8 military ones. Are you expecting all the personnel on the 4 bases to fill all the slots on the military units after SAR-H. This really is scare mongering at its worst.
You say "mark my words" but as we all know your "words" frequently change to suit whichever argument you are attempting to win. The MCA has been running SAR units successfully for over 20 years and will continue to do so. Your attempts to continuously rubbish them by making shameful comments like the one above only shows you to be coming more and more out of touch and slightly hysterical. 
They'll be plenty of positions for ex military crews within SAR-H. There are only 4 MCA bases and 8 military ones. Are you expecting all the personnel on the 4 bases to fill all the slots on the military units after SAR-H. This really is scare mongering at its worst.
Mark my words, if SARH goes ahead in its present guise, the uniforms will change and the aircraft will change - the experience level and quantity of training will reduce and the capability will be eroded - it will be glossed over by company and MCA spin doctors but it will happen.
Lost - there will be plenty of positions available for ex mil crews because it is the only way the new contract can be manned successfully.
The maximum number of mil personnel under SAR H will be 66 which includes manning the Falklands det - that leaves about 2 flights worth of mil in UK.
Therefore the contractor will have to find crews for another 6 flights.
Unless there is an exodus from the miltary (unlikely for many reasons, some of which I have mentioned before) there will not be enough fully-trained and SAR experienced crews to maintain the standby.
The SARH bidders know this and have asked why there can't be more mil involvement.
Btw - you weren't listening last time - the MCA don't run the civsar flights, the contractors do.
Your lack of knowledge and experience of UK SAR means that whatever I try to say, you will take words and phrases out of context and trivialise them. The Military runs 66% of UK SAR and I know how it works and what it is capable of - without the skills and knowledge we bring to the party, UK SAR will be a lesser service in the future. I think I have been pretty consistent in delivering that message
The maximum number of mil personnel under SAR H will be 66 which includes manning the Falklands det - that leaves about 2 flights worth of mil in UK.
Therefore the contractor will have to find crews for another 6 flights.
Unless there is an exodus from the miltary (unlikely for many reasons, some of which I have mentioned before) there will not be enough fully-trained and SAR experienced crews to maintain the standby.
The SARH bidders know this and have asked why there can't be more mil involvement.
Btw - you weren't listening last time - the MCA don't run the civsar flights, the contractors do.
Your lack of knowledge and experience of UK SAR means that whatever I try to say, you will take words and phrases out of context and trivialise them. The Military runs 66% of UK SAR and I know how it works and what it is capable of - without the skills and knowledge we bring to the party, UK SAR will be a lesser service in the future. I think I have been pretty consistent in delivering that message
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Spanish who ever you are
First you come in this forum and and start over looking at my spelling and and engish grammar and also that I know nothing about SAR
So beit I thought the whole point of a forum was free speech and that everyody was entitled to their opinion.
And yes I was using a bit of humour but obvious you and along with 332M and crab have none
First you come in this forum and and start over looking at my spelling and and engish grammar and also that I know nothing about SAR
So beit I thought the whole point of a forum was free speech and that everyody was entitled to their opinion.
And yes I was using a bit of humour but obvious you and along with 332M and crab have none
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We have all these SAR experts on here so I find it odd that nobody can answer my post 119
Is it because there is a ban on releasing what could be embarrassing information?
So the questions again:
1. Has the S92 a greater radius of action than the Seaking or even the S61
2. Will the S92 ever be able to go as far as the Seaking without compromising cabin space?
2strops
Is it because there is a ban on releasing what could be embarrassing information?
So the questions again:
1. Has the S92 a greater radius of action than the Seaking or even the S61
2. Will the S92 ever be able to go as far as the Seaking without compromising cabin space?
2strops
2Strops - I am clearly not an S92 pilot but I believe the answer to both your questions is No!
The Mk 3 and 3A Sea Kings have a RoA of 240nm on an average day which the S92 can't get near (the S61 used to tote approx 195nm RoA).
From the information available, the S92's extra tanks fit is an internal one and therefore at the expense of cabin space. There are various claims on the time required to fit the overload tanks but you can be sure it won't be within the normal RS15. I believe the RoA with them fitted is 300nm but this may be more spin
The Mk 3 and 3A Sea Kings have a RoA of 240nm on an average day which the S92 can't get near (the S61 used to tote approx 195nm RoA).
From the information available, the S92's extra tanks fit is an internal one and therefore at the expense of cabin space. There are various claims on the time required to fit the overload tanks but you can be sure it won't be within the normal RS15. I believe the RoA with them fitted is 300nm but this may be more spin
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MCA don't run the civsar flights, the contractors do.
The Military runs 66% of UK SAR and I know how it works and what it is capable of - without the skills and knowledge we bring to the party, UK SAR will be a lesser service in the future.
As one of your disciples has already pointed out the skills and knowledge the military have of SAR has been passed to the Civvy SAR in the past and is still coming. Lot's of ex military SAR pilots have joined civy SAR and are quite happy with how it operates and the high level of service it provides. They and the civilian pilots strive to provide a high level of service and look at ways to make it safer and better. Your problem is that you can't accept that anyone in Civvy SAR can develop SAR and make it better. But there is plenty of innovation and development there. You just can't accept that anyone other than the RAF can do that. After SAR-H yes there will be less people coming in from the military but that doesn't mean that ideas and development will stop. There will be a big pool of SAR crew with all the support behind it. You don't have to wear an RAF uniform to have a good idea and improve things you know.
It's worth pointing out that one of the biggest developments in SAR, the twin hoist, was developed by Bristow Helicopters. Something that is now fitted as standard on most SAR aircraft. I'm not sure if the Sea Kings have it yet but when/if you do even you will have to admit it makes for a safer environment for the crewmen.
In April 2003 it was announced that Bristow Helicopters was to receive a Queen's Award for Enterprise, in the Innovation category, in recognition of its continuous development of Search and Rescue helicopters since 1971.
Lost - I say again - the MCA task the SAR flights, the contractors run them on behalf of the MCA - this is why, when the MCA go on strike, the SAR helicopters keep on going as we may see next weekend.
I think you'll find the hoist manufacturers were actually responsible for creating and introducing the twin hoist.
Where exactly is this big pool of SAR crew going to come from? Where is the NVG experience going to appear from? Where is the multi aircraft ops experience going to come from? 6 flights is 60 pilots and 60 rearcrew plus the existing civ crews that will need extra training to take on the overland night tasking. You glibly gloss over the major problem with this contract - that the devil is in the detail and all the management speak and spin in the world won't make that go away.
Improvement and capability comes from training. Train hard, fight easy. Who does more training?
I'm not doubting the committment to excellence by the civ SAR crews but someone has to pay for innovation.
AW and VT convinced everyone that they could take over the engineering of Mil SAR in the same arrogant fashion that people like you talk about taking over the flying role of mil SAR. They use words like seamless, no reduction in availability, smooth transition etc but it hasn't worked - so badly in fact that a senior engineer resigned this week. They will eventually make it work but it will cost them a lot of money and us a lot of angst.
Just face facts - business is about profit - therefore, whatever promises are made before the event are worthless once the realities of the balance sheet are brought into play and the inevitable weasel-wording of the lawyers will ensure that all sorts of capabilities are eroded in order to protect the profit margin. Training is the single easiest corner to cut because there is no immediate effect - it takes time for the skills to fade and by the time anyone notices it is too late to reverse the situation.
I think you'll find the hoist manufacturers were actually responsible for creating and introducing the twin hoist.
Where exactly is this big pool of SAR crew going to come from? Where is the NVG experience going to appear from? Where is the multi aircraft ops experience going to come from? 6 flights is 60 pilots and 60 rearcrew plus the existing civ crews that will need extra training to take on the overland night tasking. You glibly gloss over the major problem with this contract - that the devil is in the detail and all the management speak and spin in the world won't make that go away.
Improvement and capability comes from training. Train hard, fight easy. Who does more training?
I'm not doubting the committment to excellence by the civ SAR crews but someone has to pay for innovation.
AW and VT convinced everyone that they could take over the engineering of Mil SAR in the same arrogant fashion that people like you talk about taking over the flying role of mil SAR. They use words like seamless, no reduction in availability, smooth transition etc but it hasn't worked - so badly in fact that a senior engineer resigned this week. They will eventually make it work but it will cost them a lot of money and us a lot of angst.
Just face facts - business is about profit - therefore, whatever promises are made before the event are worthless once the realities of the balance sheet are brought into play and the inevitable weasel-wording of the lawyers will ensure that all sorts of capabilities are eroded in order to protect the profit margin. Training is the single easiest corner to cut because there is no immediate effect - it takes time for the skills to fade and by the time anyone notices it is too late to reverse the situation.
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Lost at Sea,
Could you clarify who, exactly, from the MCA is involved with the day to day running of the civ SAR flts and what qualifications they hold that allows them to do that?
Could you also state what duties they perform?
This is a genuine question and not the start point for a slanging match.
Thanks,
HAL
Could you clarify who, exactly, from the MCA is involved with the day to day running of the civ SAR flts and what qualifications they hold that allows them to do that?
Could you also state what duties they perform?
This is a genuine question and not the start point for a slanging match.
Thanks,
HAL
Crab,
When I retired, the Bristow SAR S61N's had two separate hoists one French and the other American (as fitted to the Griffon), they happen to be bolted either side of the hoist frame. Bristow definitely introduced them.
When I retired, the Bristow SAR S61N's had two separate hoists one French and the other American (as fitted to the Griffon), they happen to be bolted either side of the hoist frame. Bristow definitely introduced them.
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Crab, "I think you'll find the hoist manufacturers were actually responsible for creating and introducing the twin hoist."
dear crab, you are not thinking at all. the dual hoist came about from the Cullen report after the MV Green Lily incident, were a very brave winchman was lost. for you to ignore this fact is an insult to the memory of Bill Deacon and puts you lower in my estimation than you already are.
dear crab, you are not thinking at all. the dual hoist came about from the Cullen report after the MV Green Lily incident, were a very brave winchman was lost. for you to ignore this fact is an insult to the memory of Bill Deacon and puts you lower in my estimation than you already are.
Don't be so precious rope dope - you really do need to look at what you have written in the context of this thread - just because I didn't specifically mention Billy Deacon in the same sentence as I talked about the hoist is hardly reason to accuse me of not respecting his memory.
The introduction of the twin hoist did, I am sure, come as a direct result of that accident and the report but trying to canonize Bristows as SAR gods just because they were the first to have a twin hoist fitted is faintly pathetic.
Since the twin hoist was an option before the accident, you have to ask why they waited until they lost a winchman to decide to fit them - surely a forward looking company pursuing SAR excellence would have considered the what-ifs of a hoist failure and pre-empted the situation.
As for the MCA - today Swansea CG are broadcasting that they are already taking industrial action - I didn't think it was until next weekend. They are answering emergency calls at the moment but next weekend might be different since you have to have some ops room staff in the building to answer the radios and phones. Who will they get to do the job for them I wonder?
The introduction of the twin hoist did, I am sure, come as a direct result of that accident and the report but trying to canonize Bristows as SAR gods just because they were the first to have a twin hoist fitted is faintly pathetic.
Since the twin hoist was an option before the accident, you have to ask why they waited until they lost a winchman to decide to fit them - surely a forward looking company pursuing SAR excellence would have considered the what-ifs of a hoist failure and pre-empted the situation.
As for the MCA - today Swansea CG are broadcasting that they are already taking industrial action - I didn't think it was until next weekend. They are answering emergency calls at the moment but next weekend might be different since you have to have some ops room staff in the building to answer the radios and phones. Who will they get to do the job for them I wonder?
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Crab Quote:- "Since the twin hoist was an option before the accident, you have to ask why they waited until they lost a winchman to decide to fit them - surely a forward looking company pursuing SAR excellence would have considered the what-ifs of a hoist failure and pre-empted the situation"
So you know that for a fact "J" do you? if so come on lets see the some proof.
You'll be telling us the RAF need to keep uk Sar so they can keep up their skill's for combat SAR.
If thats the case your 4 hours a day training must make you the ideal pilot to send to Iraq and give us all a break
So you know that for a fact "J" do you? if so come on lets see the some proof.
You'll be telling us the RAF need to keep uk Sar so they can keep up their skill's for combat SAR.
If thats the case your 4 hours a day training must make you the ideal pilot to send to Iraq and give us all a break
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Crab, your arrogance is overwhelming.
Until you have served or even visited an MCA base and discussed the differences between Civil or Mil SAR how can you claim (which you have done on no uncertain terms, on many occasions) to be an authority on UK SAR.
Having already met you, your superciliousness is as self evident as each and every post you make.
I hope you and your family are prepared for 2012 when jobs maybe hard to find.
From a civil aviator
Doc Brown
Until you have served or even visited an MCA base and discussed the differences between Civil or Mil SAR how can you claim (which you have done on no uncertain terms, on many occasions) to be an authority on UK SAR.
Having already met you, your superciliousness is as self evident as each and every post you make.
I hope you and your family are prepared for 2012 when jobs maybe hard to find.
From a civil aviator
Doc Brown
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crab, I mentioned the Cullen report, I am not cannonising anyone. sar gods are your words not mine. you must be singlehandedly responsible for more people leaving pprune/rotorheads than anyone/thing I can imagine. are you talking about the same forward looking sar as the military who did'nt have twin hoists or forward looking infra red at that time. get a life.
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Crab, you asked about civilian SAR training. My previous response was historical, but not far off more recent information. This is from Bristow's website circa 2006.
Search & Rescue
Bristow operates four dedicated Search and Rescue (SAR) sites in the UK, on behalf of the Coast Guard Service. The units are located at Portland and Lee-on-Solent on the south coast of England, at Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides, and at Sumburgh in the Shetland Isles.
A significant number of training staff is on duty at each site. Three pilots are current JAA TRI/TRE appointment holders with full UK CAA Authorized Examiner authority. Each unit has a Training Air Crewman who is responsible for all rear crew training and re-currency checking.
In addition, Bristow has a vigorous company standardization system. To cover SAR training, one of the training pilots serves as the Bristow SAR Standards Pilot, and a Senior Winchman fulfills the role of Bristow SAR Aircrewman Standards Examiner.
Bristow’s SAR training commonly includes these topics:
* Pilot training including day/night/IFR Maritime and Mountain operations
* Winch Operator training
* Winchman training
* Training in the use of specialist equipment including: LN450, FLIR, Dual Hoist, EHSI, NVG, GPS
* First Aid training
Crab, I've mentioned it previously, the civilian SAR project, intended originally for use in the 40's field was the creation of a former Crab. This is BD Eyes, prior to being dunked by a very experienced former Crab. (Poor point scoring by me) It was a natural evolution from the 212 project.
The mention of Billy Deacon has a sobering effect within the confines of this conversation. He taught me map reading from the back of a Wessex 5, he then taught me to do as I'm told when being winched on a hook way back in 1974/75. His loss punched the wind out of the SAR teams, it is to their great credit that they continued their work and enhanced their already solid reputation. Since the inception of civilian SAR the teams have acquired and earned a reputation that is second to none. By that I mean they stand alongside, not against their colleagues in military SAR. If you cannot accept that then you really are not the right material for the broader world of aviation outside the services.
Search & Rescue
Bristow operates four dedicated Search and Rescue (SAR) sites in the UK, on behalf of the Coast Guard Service. The units are located at Portland and Lee-on-Solent on the south coast of England, at Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides, and at Sumburgh in the Shetland Isles.
A significant number of training staff is on duty at each site. Three pilots are current JAA TRI/TRE appointment holders with full UK CAA Authorized Examiner authority. Each unit has a Training Air Crewman who is responsible for all rear crew training and re-currency checking.
In addition, Bristow has a vigorous company standardization system. To cover SAR training, one of the training pilots serves as the Bristow SAR Standards Pilot, and a Senior Winchman fulfills the role of Bristow SAR Aircrewman Standards Examiner.
Bristow’s SAR training commonly includes these topics:
* Pilot training including day/night/IFR Maritime and Mountain operations
* Winch Operator training
* Winchman training
* Training in the use of specialist equipment including: LN450, FLIR, Dual Hoist, EHSI, NVG, GPS
* First Aid training
Crab, I've mentioned it previously, the civilian SAR project, intended originally for use in the 40's field was the creation of a former Crab. This is BD Eyes, prior to being dunked by a very experienced former Crab. (Poor point scoring by me) It was a natural evolution from the 212 project.
The mention of Billy Deacon has a sobering effect within the confines of this conversation. He taught me map reading from the back of a Wessex 5, he then taught me to do as I'm told when being winched on a hook way back in 1974/75. His loss punched the wind out of the SAR teams, it is to their great credit that they continued their work and enhanced their already solid reputation. Since the inception of civilian SAR the teams have acquired and earned a reputation that is second to none. By that I mean they stand alongside, not against their colleagues in military SAR. If you cannot accept that then you really are not the right material for the broader world of aviation outside the services.