SARH to go

[exairman]

WTD

Did some work looking at the WTD for engineers and being on call or standby (for example sat in a crewroom watching TV) did not count as working time. Granted may be different for aircrew but food for thought?

[HAL9000]

So what is the ROA of a UK based MCA contracted S92?

If the ROA is being declared as 250 when it is really 205, and the tasking authority is using that info to make life and death decisions, isn't whoever is declaring inaccurate info being negligent?

Also a quick calculation of hours in a year divided by 2000 shows you need 5 crews to maintain full cover.

HAL

[Gaspode the Dog]

S92 Roa

There is a difference between the ROA's for Stornoway and Sumburgh. Stornoway have the Aux tanks fitted so have increased fuel capacity so can fly achieve the same ROA as a RAF Sea King but without the need to remove role equipment. If you use a strip list then the S92 can go further.

At Sumburgh the tanks are not fitted because it is surrounded by rigs with fuel so just like Wattisham, there is less operational requirement to fly 250nm out into the Atlantic for a job.

[[email protected]]

So the answer is that the aux tank fit has now been cleared for use and is permanently fitted on the Stornoway aircraft - why didn't you just say that in the first place Calli?

The MCA said that the aux tank fit would give a 300nm RoA so I guess from what has been said that you now come up aginst an AuM limit and can't get full fuel in with full SAR role kit. So the new shiny machine has exactly the same problem as the old ****ty one So much for progress!

But I believe the aux tank fit reduces the cabin space available - anyone care to state how many seats there are available for survivors with the aux tanks in?

5 full crews to maintain one aircraft on full cover........that's 25% more expensive than the military (going down to 4 crews) who have 2 aircraft - of course civilianisation is cheaper than the military....not!

[HAL9000]

This link might help the debate.

http://www.sikorsky.com/sik/Attachme...ssionBrief.pdf

Looks like one stretcher and not many seats with the aux tanks fitted. Obviously I can't be a true Ppruner as this is verifiable information supplied by the manufacturer. I promise to make things up in future!

HAL

[budget1]

There you go again crab 5 crews and one aircraft when you know Stornoway and Sumburgh have two aircraft per base and you have mentioned over and over again about your standby capabilities. No matter how you dress that up it will never be achieved the way you always portray it with only 4 crews. Lets face it you are going backwards less crews and your aircraft becoming unserviceable on a regular basis. Now I accept that as being a play with words my version is truthful but only picking out the negatives.

[HAL9000]

Could someone clarify the following for me:

1. How many crews at each mil and civ SAR base?
2. How many ac stationed at each mil and civ base?
3. How many ac(with crew) declared available for SAR at each base?

Sorry for all these questions but it does get confusing.

Thanks,

HAL

[Flag Track]

Sorry for thread drift, but has an RAF Seaking ever landed on water/water taxied/done a SEWTO (sp?) and does the S-92 have that capability? Not knocking the S-92, more knowledgeable peeps on here for that. Just idly wondered.

[onevan]

WTD

Under SAR-H the WTD limit applies to all crews mil or civvie.

[[email protected]]

Budget - yes you have 2 aircraft but the second one is not declared as a standby aircraft, that is the difference. You have 2 to provide one, we have 2 to provide 2 (serviceability permitting). We have been round the buoy several times regarding how many more flying hours we do than you because of our training requirements - more flying means more servicing means more snags.

Hal - 2 aircraft at each base whether civ or mil.
both aircraft declared at mil, only one at civ
5 crews at each becoming 4 at Mil
2 crews declared at mil, 1 crew at civ

Sea King can do 240nm RoA with 17 seats available (ie no restrictions on cabin space) S92 (at Stornoway) can now do 250 nm RoA but with restricted cabin space.

Sea King has Emergency Lube system for MRGB in case of massive oil loss and can rtb from almost max range (albeit at 70 kts) - S92 has no ELS or run-dry capability on MRGB.

I keep being told that the new helicopters are the future of UK SAR but they struggle to meet the Sea Kings present (and very old) capability, let alone set the new standard for the next 20-30 years. They have glass cockpits and go a bit faster but that is it.

You guys are the UK taxpayers - do you see any overwhelming reasons to fork out £3-5Bn for SARH?

I don't think any of that is twisting words

[[email protected]]

Flag track - some of the RN/RAF pilots have been to the Waterbirds course run by the Canadians where you get to water land, taxy and takeoff/SEWTO in their Sea Kings.

I have only been on Sea King since 2001 and we haven't landed one on the water since then, nor have the RN to my knowledge but I am fairly certain it has happened in the past.

I'm sure an S92 driver will tell us if it has the designed water lamding capability (but I don't think it has)

[budget1]

Crab
Going to declare 2 crews out of a total of 4 how can that possibly be seen as safe.

[Lost at Sea]

I see Crab and his cronies are up to full spin and talking nonsense as usual so here we go....

Sea King can do 240nm RoA with 17 seats available (ie no restrictions on cabin space)

A recent rescue proformed by Lossie to go 200 miles west of Benbecula airport reported in the paper.
Outstanding rescue award for Scottish crew - Press & Journal
Flt Sgt Hutt said: “We don’t often do long-range jobs like this so it took a lot of planning. “It involved the engineers from the start stripping the aircraft and getting rid of any extra weight."

So they were stripping out the aircraft to go 200nm and yet Crab spin says you don't need to!!! A bit of a contridiction Crab n'est pas??

I keep being told that the new helicopters are the future of UK SAR but they struggle to meet the Sea Kings present (and very old) capability, let alone set the new standard for the next 20-30 years. They have glass cockpits and go a bit faster but that is it.

Oh yes and Crab spin conveniently forgets to add that the S92 have better performance, are a lot faster, are fully de iced so can fly in all weathers, have a twin hoist, navigation benefits such as moving map, FLIR in the cabin/cockpit, EGPWS, TCAS, AIS (Crab if you don't know what the last 3 are - just ask!) plus sat phone for long distance comms, have a radar that points in the direction you are flying, have a proper IFR nav kit, fully coupled IFR and SAR modes vastly superior to what the old sea kings have and it is constantly in development. Oh but the Sea King has a kettle... mind you then need it cos it takes them so long to get there!

It's only a shame that Bristow pulled out they were by far the best SAR operator - maybe why thats what Crab and his croonies didn't like about them it showed them up. Oh and repeating the old modern myth about the gearbox on the floor - please get it right that particular lie always refers to an engine not a gearbox!

As for the military being cheaper than civy SAR what tosh! The military have no repect for taxpayers money, they treat it as there own personal fund with no hestitation to waste it such as the £2.5 billion wasted on nimrods and chinnoks! Face facts with the credit crunch coming in your unefficient, over indulgent wasteful days are over... you might even lose the school fees the tax payer is funding too!!


Still, nice to see Crab at his bullSh*tting best!

[Hilife]

Crab – Although if I might say so a little blinkered at times, I take my hat off to your defence of both Mil SAR and the S-61 on this thread, but you would do well to give a little more consideration to what – hopefully – the future could hold for UK SAR.

Both platforms operated by CHC are certified to the latest FAR/JAR Part 29, Amendment 47 requirements and a point that is often overlooked, is that both are at the beginning of their service lives, so we can expect to see a great deal of investment and improvements to both types over the coming years.

Upon entering service, I cannot think of any aircraft that hasn’t had it’s problems and I suspect that a great deal of pressure is on both OEM’s to step up to the plate and iron out the in-service issues that both ships currently have.

No one doubts the excellent reputation the S-61 has received over the years as a SAR platform, but even with new blades and an avionics suite she’s still an old bird, built using older technologies and requiring higher maintenance per flight hour than her more modern counterparts and dare I say it, is likely less reliable as well.

As we are talking about a 25-year contract, does it make sense to be flying around in 2037 in a ship designed and certified way back in the 1950’s and also do you think that any OEM would relish the thought of supporting such an old platform some 25+ years from now?

[HAL9000]

Onevan,

Ref the WTD applying to both mil and civ crews under SAR-H, are you sure?

Crab,

Thanks for the gen. So you get twice as much SAR from a mil flt as from a civvy.

HAL

[HAL9000]

Lost at Sea,

Wasn't an S-92 unit first tasked with this rescue?

HAL

[[email protected]]

Lost - OK I'll rise...I suspect that if you looked at the weather conditions at the time of that rescue, the RoA of any helicopter would have been reduced and they may have had to hold IFR div fuel as well. The fact is that the S92 couldn't have got there at that time since the aux tanks weren't fitted.

The Sea King 3/3a does have an RoA of 240nm, sometimes better, but as we have seen sometimes some of the role euipment has to come off to get full fuel in. To get more than 205nm, the S92 has to have aux fuel tanks fitted at the cost of greatly reduced cabin space - might not matter for 1 fisherman but a whole boatload would be a different matter (sinking trawler perhaps).

THe Sea King also has quite an acceptable icing clearance (down to -7 deg at 3000 DA) what is the S92s?

We have an emergency hoist (that has never been used in anger) and although moving maps are nice they are hardly essential items for SAR. FLIR repeater in the cockpit would be nice but you just load up the co-pilot with stuff which we give to the Radop when the co should be monitoring what the captain is doing (instrument cross checks, safety calls etc). We have a rad alt with audio and visual warnings instead of EGPWS, don't have TCAS and can't see a practical use for AIS (you have it because it is an MCA toy).
The radar has been dicussed at length and you don't understand the arguments.
We have full IFR kit and fully coupled IFR and SAR modes on the 3A and what is more we actually train to use them.

How did Bristows show us up? They didn't even have paramedic trained winchmen until the RAF set the standard.

When you are operating overland at night in poor weather on multi agency ops across the whole country you can claim to have reached parity with MilSAR but until then you are not ready to slag us off for lack of capability.

Hilife - I am genuinely concerned about the future for UK SAR which is why I
p8ss so many people off rather than just roll over and let the desire for profit erode the very high standards which exist at the moment.

I don't think the modified Sea King would be anything but a short term fix but at the moment we are being rushed headlong into a very expensive contract when all other avenues (COMO for instance) haven't been fully explored or costed.

Budget1 - how is declaring 2 crews out of 4 unsafe? Do you think the Chinook and Apache crews in the 'stan are compying with EUWTD? Nor do we.

[steve_oc]

S92 icing clearance is 10,000 feet PA, -40°C, no freezing rain or supercooled large droplets, and, er, that's it.

[budget1]

Crab
Come on the crews in 'stan do not stay out there indefinitely. If two crews out of four are declared 24 hours every day how do you get leave weekends etc. You will always have backup and I am quite sure when and if you really go down to four crews you will not be carrying out the standby role in the way you do today.

[267.4FWD]

head[brickwall

You have been invited to visit an S92 operation to gather first hand experience of how we operate,the equipment we use and the aircraft its capabilities,the limitations,but still you denigrate your civvy SAR pals.
Suggest you give your mates at Lossie a call,they were very receptive making the most of our visit,they seemed to be very impressed with the new entrant to the SAR world.
You are a good windup merchant,think you are misplaced in this business,try the real world!