Merlin info
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: England
Merlin info
Maybe on odd question but i work for an architects practice and we are currently working on the design of a new fire station in the Peak District. One of the requirements we have to meet is that there is space to land a Merlin helicopter (mountain rescue etc). Its proving very difficult to find the information that we need.
Anyone got any links or manuals available that might help or are any Merlin pilots able to advise?
Many thanks.
Paul.
Anyone got any links or manuals available that might help or are any Merlin pilots able to advise?
Many thanks.
Paul.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: On the Rump of Pendle Hill GB
Paul,
You will find that the Merlin is about the same size as the Hughie or UH1 but I think it has four blades not two and they are on skids and more heavy, many people will be able to give you dimentions, if I was at home I could but Im not so I cant. SASLESS will give you all you need to know on dims about the UH1
Whatever you do, give the pilot plenty of space, away from trees and building and flagpoles and wires they tend to do silly things to Helis and spoil days.
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb/2
You will find that the Merlin is about the same size as the Hughie or UH1 but I think it has four blades not two and they are on skids and more heavy, many people will be able to give you dimentions, if I was at home I could but Im not so I cant. SASLESS will give you all you need to know on dims about the UH1
Whatever you do, give the pilot plenty of space, away from trees and building and flagpoles and wires they tend to do silly things to Helis and spoil days.
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb/2
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: England
Thanks Peter. Yes we have the dimensions of the thing but presumably it needs more than just a clear space equal to or a bit bigger than the rotor disk? Would it decend and lift off vertically or do they prefer to come in at an angle so they don't decend into their own turbulance?
Trouble is even if we do find someone who knows the answer we'll still have to get it in writing before we are able to say go ahead, its a question of liability and all that legal stuff!
Trouble is even if we do find someone who knows the answer we'll still have to get it in writing before we are able to say go ahead, its a question of liability and all that legal stuff!
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: P
Have a look at http://www.agustawestland.com/produc...=dim_EH101.gif if you just want the physical dimensions ?
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 56
From: UK
Paul,
According to BHAB, the EH101 (Merlin) is 22.80m long, has a rotor diameter of 18.60m and Max AUW is 14515kg. (But judging by your last post, you already know that.
)
But BHAB also publish a very useful guide to setting up a helipad. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend it for what you are attempting. If any of the language gets too 'heli technical', please don't hesitate to ask for clarification.
HTH
According to BHAB, the EH101 (Merlin) is 22.80m long, has a rotor diameter of 18.60m and Max AUW is 14515kg. (But judging by your last post, you already know that.
)But BHAB also publish a very useful guide to setting up a helipad. If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend it for what you are attempting. If any of the language gets too 'heli technical', please don't hesitate to ask for clarification.
HTH
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
From: n/a
You will find that the Merlin is about the same size as the Hughie or UH1 but I think it has four blades not two and they are on skids and more heavy,
Westlands should be able to provide advice , after all they build the thing. I'd be tempted to phone them up and ask (+44 1935 475222).
Some reading for you could include ICAO Annex 14 Volume 2 which although intended for licenced helicopter aerodromes includes a lot of guidance as to FATO (Final Approach/Take Off) clearances and required areas.
Also lighting and markings, surface materials etc.
The CAA in Gatwick should have a Civil Air Publication (CAP) covering similar UK requirements. (possibly 168 though that may just be fixed wing)
Speak with current UK Merlin operators - the RAF and RN and ask for their requirements.
I suspect the merlin requirement is because it is the largest helicopter likely to be entered into the competition for the UK's future SAR needs and as such a pad designed for a merlin should fit anything else.
Edited to add - Like the BHAB guide, consider also
FAA planning guide Ok its american but it has nice pictures that make things more obvious.
Last edited by Daysleeper; 3rd June 2008 at 14:32.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Paul,
You might want to check with the Canadians, they fly a variant of the EH101 in the SAR role (well sometimes). The Cormorant is very much like a Merlin Mk III in that it is non-folding with a ramp (actually it is exactly like a AW510, but that’s another subject). Anyway the point is as they fly the aircraft in the SAR role and therefore do a lot of landings in hospital parking lots etc. I would contact 442 Squadron in Comox, British Columbia, someone form there may be able to help you. Good Luck!
You might want to check with the Canadians, they fly a variant of the EH101 in the SAR role (well sometimes). The Cormorant is very much like a Merlin Mk III in that it is non-folding with a ramp (actually it is exactly like a AW510, but that’s another subject). Anyway the point is as they fly the aircraft in the SAR role and therefore do a lot of landings in hospital parking lots etc. I would contact 442 Squadron in Comox, British Columbia, someone form there may be able to help you. Good Luck!
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
And you will discover that the downwash of the Merlin meant that the Canadians had to stop using some of their smaller LS.
An absolute minimum just to park the aircraft should be 1.5 times the overall size of the aircraft (blades turning, from front of MR to tip of TR) which if that dimesion for the Merlin is 22.8m gives just over 33m for the diameter of the circle.
For military use and inclusion in our HLS directory, the LS would need to be recced by MAOTS.
An absolute minimum just to park the aircraft should be 1.5 times the overall size of the aircraft (blades turning, from front of MR to tip of TR) which if that dimesion for the Merlin is 22.8m gives just over 33m for the diameter of the circle.
For military use and inclusion in our HLS directory, the LS would need to be recced by MAOTS.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: England
Thanks for all the info guys, most helpful.
Re Westland, i though that they made them but unless i've got it wrong somewhere it turns out that Westland build the airframes, Rolls Royce make the engines and Lockheed Martin (UK) put it all together. We are awaiting a return phone call from them anyhow.
The BHAB guide is very useful but i'm not so sure how relevant it is to a military helicoptor which operates under different limitations to a civillian machine. More or less onerous? I'm not sure. Think its mostly related to single engine performance (in the event of an engine failure on a mulit engine helicoptor).
Any help as to what MAOTS is?
Re Westland, i though that they made them but unless i've got it wrong somewhere it turns out that Westland build the airframes, Rolls Royce make the engines and Lockheed Martin (UK) put it all together. We are awaiting a return phone call from them anyhow.
The BHAB guide is very useful but i'm not so sure how relevant it is to a military helicoptor which operates under different limitations to a civillian machine. More or less onerous? I'm not sure. Think its mostly related to single engine performance (in the event of an engine failure on a mulit engine helicoptor).
Any help as to what MAOTS is?
Red On, Green On
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,490
Likes: 2
From: Between the woods and the water
You are best off speaking to the operators of the Merlin, not the makers. Call OC 28 Sqn (or 78 Sqn) at RAF Benson on 01491 837766 and ask him.
MAOTS:
"The MAOTS are a very busy unit that travels throughout UK and Europe to give advice to military and civilian organizations on the utilization of helicopters. There are 13 MAOTs, each one consisting of a RAF Officer, Master Aircrew or SNCO and 2 Signallers from 21 Signals Regiment (Air Support) based at Colerne in Wiltshire. The Teams regularly deploy on operations and exercises in support of the British Army and the SHF. Primarily the Teams co-ordinate and control helicopter movements into and out of the helicopter landing sites (HLS), and provide communications between the supported unit and the aircraft. When deployed the Team Leader (TL) acts as the trouble-shooter for all helicopter matters with an overarching responsibility for Flight Safety. As a secondary duty, TLs are also responsible for maintaining and updating the information contained in the various HLS directories in use by all military helicopters."
from http://www.raf.mod.uk/RAFbenson/aboutus/units.cfm
MAOTS:
"The MAOTS are a very busy unit that travels throughout UK and Europe to give advice to military and civilian organizations on the utilization of helicopters. There are 13 MAOTs, each one consisting of a RAF Officer, Master Aircrew or SNCO and 2 Signallers from 21 Signals Regiment (Air Support) based at Colerne in Wiltshire. The Teams regularly deploy on operations and exercises in support of the British Army and the SHF. Primarily the Teams co-ordinate and control helicopter movements into and out of the helicopter landing sites (HLS), and provide communications between the supported unit and the aircraft. When deployed the Team Leader (TL) acts as the trouble-shooter for all helicopter matters with an overarching responsibility for Flight Safety. As a secondary duty, TLs are also responsible for maintaining and updating the information contained in the various HLS directories in use by all military helicopters."
from http://www.raf.mod.uk/RAFbenson/aboutus/units.cfm
Last edited by airborne_artist; 4th June 2008 at 15:43. Reason: Wrong squadron ID - pretty dammed stupid, I'll admit
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Paul, as AA has pointed out the MAOTS (mobile air operations teams) are based at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire and will doubtless give you any information or guidance if there are any of them actually in the UK at the moment.
As you rightly infer, military helicopters don't operate to public transport rules but that doesn't mean that we want to take unneccessary risks on approach or departure, just that we can operate more flexibly if required.
I don't have the NATO LS size dimensions to hand but I know the MAOTs will - the circle of 1.5 times the overall turning dimensions I referred to is what a military helicopter dispersal is supposed to have to operate helis from and is a good starting point as you want to keep people well outside the disc until the crew are ready for emplane/deplane.
You may be better off in the long run complying with the BHAB guidelines though since SAR may well be privatised in the future and any Fire Service helicopters (an ambition of some) may have to operate to public transport rules in some conditions.
As you rightly infer, military helicopters don't operate to public transport rules but that doesn't mean that we want to take unneccessary risks on approach or departure, just that we can operate more flexibly if required.
I don't have the NATO LS size dimensions to hand but I know the MAOTs will - the circle of 1.5 times the overall turning dimensions I referred to is what a military helicopter dispersal is supposed to have to operate helis from and is a good starting point as you want to keep people well outside the disc until the crew are ready for emplane/deplane.
You may be better off in the long run complying with the BHAB guidelines though since SAR may well be privatised in the future and any Fire Service helicopters (an ambition of some) may have to operate to public transport rules in some conditions.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 505
Likes: 1
From: Wiltshire, UK
Landing Site Criteria
I don't have the NATO LS size dimensions to hand but....
BUT, there are other things to consider too - approach angles day & night, etc.
Contact the squadrons, JADTEU & JHSU before you do anything else.
TRC
Last edited by TRC; 4th June 2008 at 15:02. Reason: Rectify stupid mistake
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Canada
A few other things to consider that haven't been covered in enough detail are as follows:
Weight: true it is 14,500Kg AUW, but what needs to be considered is that on the Merlin variant there are only four wheels supporting this weight. Tire pressure is ~7 bar, so there is significant loading on these four points. Not sure what it is though, I only flew the thing ;o). Don't use gravel or loose particles, see area below.
Size: As mentioned above it needs plenty of room, if the helipad is for patient transfer, the approach is and landing is not always conducive to a good ramp to ambulance meeting. The pad should be large enough to allow the pilot to "castor" the aircraft. That is, to turn the aircraft on the ground about its main rotor mast (or there about).
Approach & Departure: Although most helicopter pilots will use the wind to there advantage, the 101 does give excellent out of wind performance, try to set up the helipad approach with the best wind advantage. If the aircraft is flying under military specification then Cat A performance may not necessarily apply, however, if under civilian certification then this will have to be taken into consideration. Again, Westland can provide this info, I don't have a RFM in front of me to give you the details on helipad approach and departure to meet Cat A specifications.
Area: While it is important to take size into consideration, the affect of rotor downwash is significant! I have blasted autos with sand picked up from a road running adjacent to the pad. Not good! A wind sock was blown down at a hospital pad by a fellow pilot I worked with. The wind generated is significant. Rotor diameter is 18.5 m, this may be holding 14,500 Kgs in the air! Grass is good surrounding material, not small trees or shrubs. Large coniferous trees can be pushed over, even on approach.
Lighting: Standard helipad lighting is enough, again, whether or not it’s a military operation or civilian one, NVGs will aid the military operator but not the civilian one (not sure on that however), so this will refer to approach and departure for night operations. Oh, and have the wind sock lit ;o)
Noise Abatement: The 101 is loud! It has three engines operating plus the whistle of the two rotors. Having a pad away from sensitive areas is crucial. Pilots can shut is down for this though.
Support: The 101 does not need anything special in aircraft support equipment, however, having the usual helipad gear such as fire extinguishers, two-way radio communication, have frequency visible to pilot as he flies over or published. A well written operation manual for persons at the helipad for 101 danger ares, how to approach, etc.
I can't think of anymore things at the moment, but this will get you started as others have given good information regarding contacts in the UK. As I am in Canada, I can't give you those things; however, Sikorskyfan has indicated 442 Sqn in Comox, BC. Ph 001 250 339 8116
Enjoy
Weight: true it is 14,500Kg AUW, but what needs to be considered is that on the Merlin variant there are only four wheels supporting this weight. Tire pressure is ~7 bar, so there is significant loading on these four points. Not sure what it is though, I only flew the thing ;o). Don't use gravel or loose particles, see area below.
Size: As mentioned above it needs plenty of room, if the helipad is for patient transfer, the approach is and landing is not always conducive to a good ramp to ambulance meeting. The pad should be large enough to allow the pilot to "castor" the aircraft. That is, to turn the aircraft on the ground about its main rotor mast (or there about).
Approach & Departure: Although most helicopter pilots will use the wind to there advantage, the 101 does give excellent out of wind performance, try to set up the helipad approach with the best wind advantage. If the aircraft is flying under military specification then Cat A performance may not necessarily apply, however, if under civilian certification then this will have to be taken into consideration. Again, Westland can provide this info, I don't have a RFM in front of me to give you the details on helipad approach and departure to meet Cat A specifications.
Area: While it is important to take size into consideration, the affect of rotor downwash is significant! I have blasted autos with sand picked up from a road running adjacent to the pad. Not good! A wind sock was blown down at a hospital pad by a fellow pilot I worked with. The wind generated is significant. Rotor diameter is 18.5 m, this may be holding 14,500 Kgs in the air! Grass is good surrounding material, not small trees or shrubs. Large coniferous trees can be pushed over, even on approach.
Lighting: Standard helipad lighting is enough, again, whether or not it’s a military operation or civilian one, NVGs will aid the military operator but not the civilian one (not sure on that however), so this will refer to approach and departure for night operations. Oh, and have the wind sock lit ;o)
Noise Abatement: The 101 is loud! It has three engines operating plus the whistle of the two rotors. Having a pad away from sensitive areas is crucial. Pilots can shut is down for this though.
Support: The 101 does not need anything special in aircraft support equipment, however, having the usual helipad gear such as fire extinguishers, two-way radio communication, have frequency visible to pilot as he flies over or published. A well written operation manual for persons at the helipad for 101 danger ares, how to approach, etc.
I can't think of anymore things at the moment, but this will get you started as others have given good information regarding contacts in the UK. As I am in Canada, I can't give you those things; however, Sikorskyfan has indicated 442 Sqn in Comox, BC. Ph 001 250 339 8116
Enjoy
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 290
Likes: 7
From: Somerset
Colin isnt CTP anymore
It's now Don Maclaine, but I suggest you don't contact him direct but go via the Flight Ops dept or through customer support at Yeovil if you want to talk to WHL direct. However the good advice you have got here is probably correct in that the squadron is more likely to be able to answer specific operational questions than the design authority.
RAF Merlins are now cleared to operate at 15600 kg (albiet with twin wheels on the main gear) rather than 14600 kg like the CSHs so that may be something to take into account, although if you are going that big why not scale for a CH47 to cover all UK aircraft types?
Dont assume that the aircraft is NVG compatible, RN aircraft aren't but I guess that covers other platforms as well
DM
RAF Merlins are now cleared to operate at 15600 kg (albiet with twin wheels on the main gear) rather than 14600 kg like the CSHs so that may be something to take into account, although if you are going that big why not scale for a CH47 to cover all UK aircraft types?
Dont assume that the aircraft is NVG compatible, RN aircraft aren't but I guess that covers other platforms as well
DM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Paul,
Helpful group huh? I hope that you are not getting information overload? Actually it is heartwarming to see how people can all pull together and offer up valueable advise to someone that is trying to achieve something that is worthwhile. I think that you are going to have one fine Helipad at the end of all of this.
Best of Luck
Sikorskyfan
Helpful group huh? I hope that you are not getting information overload? Actually it is heartwarming to see how people can all pull together and offer up valueable advise to someone that is trying to achieve something that is worthwhile. I think that you are going to have one fine Helipad at the end of all of this.
Best of Luck
Sikorskyfan