Police Air Operators Manual
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Police Air Operators Manual
Couple of questions on the above...
1. 5/3/1 Firearms are not to be discharged from the aircraft. Wouldn't an airborne sniper capability, a la the 14th in NI, be a useful capability?
2. 2/1/1 is well out of date! Not that our local police helo bothers to ask if he can infringe the ATZ.
3. 2/4/1: Pilots are required to know all normal checklists and emergency checklists (immeadiate actions) by heart. When I've flown before I've always seen commercial pilots read the checklists, they've been told not to do them from memory in case they miss something. Is this a helo thing?
4. The manual talks about Perf B aircraft, all the police aircraft I've seen are Perf A twins - are there any B/single engined ones (Islander maybe)? That would seem to be rather restrictive!
Any idea why there's so much seemingly irrelevant info? Surely a police pilot should know when to file a flight plan or how to transmit a mayday!
Cheers!
1. 5/3/1 Firearms are not to be discharged from the aircraft. Wouldn't an airborne sniper capability, a la the 14th in NI, be a useful capability?
2. 2/1/1 is well out of date! Not that our local police helo bothers to ask if he can infringe the ATZ.
3. 2/4/1: Pilots are required to know all normal checklists and emergency checklists (immeadiate actions) by heart. When I've flown before I've always seen commercial pilots read the checklists, they've been told not to do them from memory in case they miss something. Is this a helo thing?
4. The manual talks about Perf B aircraft, all the police aircraft I've seen are Perf A twins - are there any B/single engined ones (Islander maybe)? That would seem to be rather restrictive!
Any idea why there's so much seemingly irrelevant info? Surely a police pilot should know when to file a flight plan or how to transmit a mayday!
Cheers!
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All ops manuals are full of irrelevancies - for some reason, they are used as an opportunity for telling people how to operate, stuff which should be in some sort of training or SOPs manual.
Each force should have its own version, I believe - are you looking at a generic one?
Phil
Each force should have its own version, I believe - are you looking at a generic one?
Phil
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cdb,
I assume you are talking about the UK PAOM Pt1 CAP 612?
You will have to give me a bit more of a clue to some of your questions, if you want answers. Are your references page numbers or paragraphs?
In general, the PAOM Pt1 is an appallingly structured document full of inconsistency and contradictions. As you say, it also contains stuff that every pilot should know and that tends to go out of date too. It needs a complete re-write which is threatened soon apparently.
In effect it is a document that is jointly agreed between the Home Office and the CAA, but the CAA is the lead.
The question about snipers is outside my expertise but I understand there is considerable doubt as to their accuracy. If it really became necessary, I suspect that a military sniper and aircraft would be used anyway.
Police aircraft have no special clearance or right to enter zones. They gain clearances just the same way as everyone else by making a request to ATC. If you are referring to an incident in an ATZ without an ATC controller, then no one needs a clearance into such airspace. Police aircraft can operate with a higher priority than other aircraft, but they still need a clearance.
Flying single pilot, you pretty much have to remember immediate actions, if you are to do them immediately.
"Perf" does not relate to the aircraft it relates to the performance group that the pilot chooses or has to to adopt. All current UK police aircraft are twin engine and Cat A, but sometimes some of them can operate Perf Gp B by operating at a mass greater than permitted for Perf Gp A. There were some singles in the early days, but largely because they cannot be used at night they have disappeared.
I assume you are talking about the UK PAOM Pt1 CAP 612?
You will have to give me a bit more of a clue to some of your questions, if you want answers. Are your references page numbers or paragraphs?
In general, the PAOM Pt1 is an appallingly structured document full of inconsistency and contradictions. As you say, it also contains stuff that every pilot should know and that tends to go out of date too. It needs a complete re-write which is threatened soon apparently.
In effect it is a document that is jointly agreed between the Home Office and the CAA, but the CAA is the lead.
The question about snipers is outside my expertise but I understand there is considerable doubt as to their accuracy. If it really became necessary, I suspect that a military sniper and aircraft would be used anyway.
Police aircraft have no special clearance or right to enter zones. They gain clearances just the same way as everyone else by making a request to ATC. If you are referring to an incident in an ATZ without an ATC controller, then no one needs a clearance into such airspace. Police aircraft can operate with a higher priority than other aircraft, but they still need a clearance.
Flying single pilot, you pretty much have to remember immediate actions, if you are to do them immediately.
"Perf" does not relate to the aircraft it relates to the performance group that the pilot chooses or has to to adopt. All current UK police aircraft are twin engine and Cat A, but sometimes some of them can operate Perf Gp B by operating at a mass greater than permitted for Perf Gp A. There were some singles in the early days, but largely because they cannot be used at night they have disappeared.
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Snipers!! Why on earth would we fly with a sniper? In my last life, we tried shooting from the air and even with a well trained 'gorilla' you might (only might) hit something from 500'. We run as a passenger carrying operation not operation deathsquad...........
A helicopter works very well as a platform for sniping. Just good training, and operators in the back who know what they are doing. Try consistent hits on a 15 inch square target from a 100 ft hover at 100m (Police snipers - special unit)
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Police Air Operations Manual
1. 5/3/1 Firearms are not to be discharged from the aircraft. Wouldn't an airborne sniper capability, a la the 14th in NI, be a useful capability?
The UK complies with ICAO and the Chicago convention. This prohibits civilian aircraft from discharging munitions of war. The carriage and use of a sniper and his firearm would would contravene that and therefore the UK would be acting in breach of an International treaty. Hence no snipers all
owed. How good they might be at shooting is therefore irrelevant and not even a consideration.
The UK complies with ICAO and the Chicago convention. This prohibits civilian aircraft from discharging munitions of war. The carriage and use of a sniper and his firearm would would contravene that and therefore the UK would be acting in breach of an International treaty. Hence no snipers all
owed. How good they might be at shooting is therefore irrelevant and not even a consideration.
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100' hover at 100m!! Even the SAS wouldn't want to be that close, I could hit the target from there. I could just imagine us flying over Liverpool all 'tooled up' for a job. You can winch from a helicopter, you can abseil/fast rope or do all the things the military can do, but there is no reason to. An airborne sniper is just not needed, end of story. If we went into airspace that had any threat whatsoever, the CAA would take our licence away for endangering our passengers.
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I'd expect every OM to include a decent glossary, this was a new one for me, Ghetto Bird.
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Hmmm........
Having been involved recently in putting together a PAOM I can relate to some of the confusion around why some of the material is in there. In my humble opinion it is more about being a tool for the controlling authority rather than the police ASU operations. As in......now in Chapter 3 part 4 sub section 2 sub paragraph (whatever) it specifically states that you SHOULD have.... 
.
Happy days.
IC
.Happy days.
IC
Ignoring the US scene where they fly public aircraft, use sniper fire to knock out the engines of go fast boats [that have not fired back ... yet] and where they also think its great fun to whizz along and let off automatic fire at the 'target' [and every rabbit in the kingdom I guess] in the sure and certain knowledge that some poor sod will cop one - so not exactly sniper technology.
I am only aware of one instance where a sniper was carried in a UK police aircraft in 'anger.'
That was the Michael Ryan shootings in Thames Valley area in 1987 before the PAOC came in. A sniper was carried in the rerar seat of the AS350 hovering close to the school where Ryan was holed up. The only shooting was Ryan killing himself.
I am only aware of one instance where a sniper was carried in a UK police aircraft in 'anger.'
That was the Michael Ryan shootings in Thames Valley area in 1987 before the PAOC came in. A sniper was carried in the rerar seat of the AS350 hovering close to the school where Ryan was holed up. The only shooting was Ryan killing himself.
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Snipers In Helicopters?
as a trained sniper and instructor and also a helicopter pilot I would laugh at anyone trying to make a shot from a helicopeter in a civilian enviroment! ONE SHOT= ONE KILL !
we used to have a saying that the most dangerous thing is a officer with a map, or a policeman with a gun !
we used to have a saying that the most dangerous thing is a officer with a map, or a policeman with a gun !
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cdb,
Reference 1. We would never be allowed to discharge a weapon whilst airborne. The constabulary I work for likes to gather it's resources at an "RV" point 2 miles from the scene of an incident and then talk about it for a couple of hours in the hope that the situation will blow itself out, and then not require a great deal of follow up action.
Reference 3. The vast majority of emergency/cautionary procedures should be done from memory. If you do an OPC (Operator proficiency check) in the UK you would be expected to be able to deal with most emergencies from memory. The aircraft operated by the majority of UK police forces (EC135 or Explorer) are not that complicated so it should be possible.
You mention irrelevant info, would you care to elaborate? I think the CAA (as far as the UK is concerned) have gone down the arse covering route, because they know that even if they spell everthing out letter by letter someone somewhere will suffer a brain fart which leads to yet another occurrence report being filed.
RC.
Reference 1. We would never be allowed to discharge a weapon whilst airborne. The constabulary I work for likes to gather it's resources at an "RV" point 2 miles from the scene of an incident and then talk about it for a couple of hours in the hope that the situation will blow itself out, and then not require a great deal of follow up action.
Reference 3. The vast majority of emergency/cautionary procedures should be done from memory. If you do an OPC (Operator proficiency check) in the UK you would be expected to be able to deal with most emergencies from memory. The aircraft operated by the majority of UK police forces (EC135 or Explorer) are not that complicated so it should be possible.
You mention irrelevant info, would you care to elaborate? I think the CAA (as far as the UK is concerned) have gone down the arse covering route, because they know that even if they spell everthing out letter by letter someone somewhere will suffer a brain fart which leads to yet another occurrence report being filed.
RC.
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In reference to shooting from the choppers, I think a southern california police outfit (Maybe Riverside Sheriff I think?) trained their pilots to shoot MP5 submachine guns from the aircraft after having a pilot shot while trying to follow a suspect. Saw a video of it, looked pretty nifty... and while I doubt they've shot anyone since, I think it's better to be prepared than left hanging when you need the capability.
I've shot a rifle from a helicopter as a passenger, and in some situations, I think it could be very effective... and as that big tank chase in California in the late 90s shows, police are usually the only immediately available asset when something goes crazy... so those SWAT units better be prepared.
Mike
I've shot a rifle from a helicopter as a passenger, and in some situations, I think it could be very effective... and as that big tank chase in California in the late 90s shows, police are usually the only immediately available asset when something goes crazy... so those SWAT units better be prepared.
Mike
Chief Bottle Washer
A similar discussion here, Australia's AFP are operating Rotary Wing Airframes? with this comment:
Originally Posted by Mitch Vernon
We recently conducted helicopter marksman training in Australia for an asian police force.
The shooters were machines. They could reliably hit a watermelon out to 200 meters, from the back of a shaky old jetranger.
I for one wouldn't want to be a bad guy on the recieving end.
The shooters were machines. They could reliably hit a watermelon out to 200 meters, from the back of a shaky old jetranger.
I for one wouldn't want to be a bad guy on the recieving end.
i give up !
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Big Mike
Your quote - "'munitions of war' ... so you are saying no one is allowed to discharge a firearm from a civilian helicopter? "
As stated the law is clear about not using "munitions of war" in civvy aircraft. This basically covers any firearm that is intended to do harm to someone"
The other category that you have is "Sporting weapons" - things like hunting rifles, shotguns etc. I don't think there is anything in ICAO that specifically prohibits use of sporting weapons from a helicopter, however methinks that you would need an exemption / permission from the CAA for such an activity - - maybe deer culling or something like that - i know it goes on all over the world but i'm not sure if anyone does it in UK.
Your quote - "'munitions of war' ... so you are saying no one is allowed to discharge a firearm from a civilian helicopter? "
As stated the law is clear about not using "munitions of war" in civvy aircraft. This basically covers any firearm that is intended to do harm to someone"
The other category that you have is "Sporting weapons" - things like hunting rifles, shotguns etc. I don't think there is anything in ICAO that specifically prohibits use of sporting weapons from a helicopter, however methinks that you would need an exemption / permission from the CAA for such an activity - - maybe deer culling or something like that - i know it goes on all over the world but i'm not sure if anyone does it in UK.
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ACPO Firearms Manual Section
17 CARRIAGE OF FIREARMS IN AIRCRAFT
17.5 There is to be no firing of weapons or launching of any munitions from the aircraft in the air or on the ground.
17.6 In respect of the safety and operation of the aircraft the pilot in charge has primacy and his instructions in these respects will be binding on all people on the aircraft.
So no self issuing!
17 CARRIAGE OF FIREARMS IN AIRCRAFT
17.5 There is to be no firing of weapons or launching of any munitions from the aircraft in the air or on the ground.
17.6 In respect of the safety and operation of the aircraft the pilot in charge has primacy and his instructions in these respects will be binding on all people on the aircraft.
So no self issuing!