VOR Ident. Do you bother?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Mmmmmm .........
"Of course not losing sight of the point that unless you are instrument rated in some way you are not qualified to navigate using radio aids anyway."
Bollocks ...... of course you can ..... VFR just not as a sole means of navigation.
"Of course not losing sight of the point that unless you are instrument rated in some way you are not qualified to navigate using radio aids anyway."
Bollocks ...... of course you can ..... VFR just not as a sole means of navigation.
I have absolutely no doubt that you CAN, the point remains as I stated though, you are still not qualified.On a VFR light helicopter I would doubt that the VOR receiver was maintained - no requirement.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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For LH2 - Additional "ECHO"
LH2 - I have personally experienced this ident being used but it may just apply to "private" NDB's e.g. operated by Oil Companies on private airfields or platforms or rigs.
The ICAO Standard is as below: -
3.2 Removal of Identification
During periods of routine or emergency maintenance, the identification is removed from NDBs, VORs, DMEs, TACANs, and ILSs. The removal of this identification warns pilots that the facility may be unreliable even though it transmits. Under these circumstances the facility should not be used. Similarly, prior to commissioning, a new facility (particularly VOR or ILS) may transmit with or without identification. In such cases, the facility is advertised as being ‘ON TEST’ and it should not be used for navigation.
Sorry for causing any confusion - I'll research further!
The ICAO Standard is as below: -
3.2 Removal of Identification
During periods of routine or emergency maintenance, the identification is removed from NDBs, VORs, DMEs, TACANs, and ILSs. The removal of this identification warns pilots that the facility may be unreliable even though it transmits. Under these circumstances the facility should not be used. Similarly, prior to commissioning, a new facility (particularly VOR or ILS) may transmit with or without identification. In such cases, the facility is advertised as being ‘ON TEST’ and it should not be used for navigation.
Sorry for causing any confusion - I'll research further!
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Firebird,
What did you cover within the radio nav portion of your ppl(h)?????
What does your cpl instructor do/advise???????
FWIW if I'm going to use any navaid I will ALWAYS ident it
FW
What did you cover within the radio nav portion of your ppl(h)?????
What does your cpl instructor do/advise???????
FWIW if I'm going to use any navaid I will ALWAYS ident it
FW
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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ILS and DME works the same on the modern units - no need to identify. Once we got away from coffee grinder ADF's into digitally tuned pretty much the same there.
Probably heresy to all you helicopter IFR guys
Probably heresy to all you helicopter IFR guys
When the ILS was aurally idented, it didn't sound right. After a couple of listens I realised that it wasn't the correct ident code. They had changed the runway to the opposite end and hadn't told us. The difference is the last letter of the ident only (E, not W).
My more modern IFR heli gives a visual display of the ident but I still routinely ident aurally too. It doesn't suffix the ident if the beacon is on test; it just doesn't display. If it doesn't display then aurally identing differentiates between a beacon not working correctly, or a failed aircraft receiver.
Join Date: May 2006
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Use everything that you've got, every time, and confirm it.
It's easier to do it in severe clear and the one time that you actually do require that little box to do it's job, you won't even need to think about the process.
It's easier to do it in severe clear and the one time that you actually do require that little box to do it's job, you won't even need to think about the process.
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Lost Arts
A bit off subject but since nobody ever talks about it and a lot of people don't know about it and I won't be around forever, a couple of tricks for you new men...
Using VOR for positional awareness:
Suppose you have only 1 VOR receiver, no DME. Low altitude, so you have trouble receiving a variety of VORs. Here's two ways you can get a position using only one VOR.
1. Abeam distance ("Poor Man's DME"): When flying abeam a VOR, set the CDI to pinpoint when you're exactly at the abeam point. At this point, start the clock and then reset the CDI 10 radials ahead of the flight path. When the CDI centers again, stop the clock. Note the time that elapsed in seconds, and divide by 10. The result is the number of minutes it would take you to fly to the station from that point, at that groundspeed. Example: Do the above & 90 seconds elapse; divide by 10, equals 10 minutes to station. If groundspeed is 90 knots, that's 1.5 miles per minute, so you would be 15 NM from the station. Knowing your radial from the VOR and your distance, you can arrive at a position. Very handy if you're ever caught above cloud, or disoriented in any other way.
2. Double the angle: When you know you're going to be flying by a VOR, set the CDI to determine when the station is 45 degrees ahead of you (left or right no matter). Start the clock at that point. Then reset the CDI to determine when you are exactly abeam. When abeam, note the elapsed time. That time will be exactly the time required to fly to the station at that point, at current groundspeed. Example: Elapsed time between 45 ahead and abeam equals 5:30. Current groundspeed 120 knots, that's 2 miles per minute. Therefore you are 11 NM from the station at the abeam point, and knowing the radial, you now have a position.
Using VOR for positional awareness:
Suppose you have only 1 VOR receiver, no DME. Low altitude, so you have trouble receiving a variety of VORs. Here's two ways you can get a position using only one VOR.
1. Abeam distance ("Poor Man's DME"): When flying abeam a VOR, set the CDI to pinpoint when you're exactly at the abeam point. At this point, start the clock and then reset the CDI 10 radials ahead of the flight path. When the CDI centers again, stop the clock. Note the time that elapsed in seconds, and divide by 10. The result is the number of minutes it would take you to fly to the station from that point, at that groundspeed. Example: Do the above & 90 seconds elapse; divide by 10, equals 10 minutes to station. If groundspeed is 90 knots, that's 1.5 miles per minute, so you would be 15 NM from the station. Knowing your radial from the VOR and your distance, you can arrive at a position. Very handy if you're ever caught above cloud, or disoriented in any other way.
2. Double the angle: When you know you're going to be flying by a VOR, set the CDI to determine when the station is 45 degrees ahead of you (left or right no matter). Start the clock at that point. Then reset the CDI to determine when you are exactly abeam. When abeam, note the elapsed time. That time will be exactly the time required to fly to the station at that point, at current groundspeed. Example: Elapsed time between 45 ahead and abeam equals 5:30. Current groundspeed 120 knots, that's 2 miles per minute. Therefore you are 11 NM from the station at the abeam point, and knowing the radial, you now have a position.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Thanks but in UK we can just ask for a training fix on 121.5
(That will get some of them stroppy co-pilots whinging again).
(That will get some of them stroppy co-pilots whinging again).
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Hi Firebird
My advice is ident the VOR.
Picture the scenario you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, ident the VOR and begin your nav, obviously using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, lots of praise from the FE(H), you pass.
Now picture the other scenario, you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, don’t bother to ident the VOR and begin your nav, once again using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, FE(H) is happy with your DR nav but picks you up on not identing the VOR, you hopefully pass?
In regard to your other question about asking the examiner before hand how to work a VOR I would have thought he/she would be understanding and give you a run down on how to use the ident etc, but if I were you I would get an instructor or other pilot to show me before hand just in case.
My advice is ident the VOR.
Picture the scenario you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, ident the VOR and begin your nav, obviously using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, lots of praise from the FE(H), you pass.
Now picture the other scenario, you start the nav part of your flight test, select VOR frequency & radial, don’t bother to ident the VOR and begin your nav, once again using the VOR as an aid to your DR nav, nav goes well, FE(H) is happy with your DR nav but picks you up on not identing the VOR, you hopefully pass?
In regard to your other question about asking the examiner before hand how to work a VOR I would have thought he/she would be understanding and give you a run down on how to use the ident etc, but if I were you I would get an instructor or other pilot to show me before hand just in case.
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Why? I've flown almost 180 hours
.. How did you even pass your PPL(H) .. its part of the flight test ! (well mine anyway ) Posts like this give me the shivers .. !!!!!
only ever played with VORs / RMIs / DMEs on MS Flight Simulator. I guess that's why.
I'm not sure what to really make of this bit ..... I feel ill ...
Last edited by Ding Dong; 28th Apr 2008 at 22:04. Reason: added more info
