No autos insurance problem
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Terminating every flight with an auto because of noise issues is probably one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum. Fair enough to do this in training when the student needs auto practice, but afterwards?!!
What's wrong with terminating every training flight with a steep approach/running landing/stuck pedal landing/downwind approach/governor off approach. They are all just as valid skills as doing an auto, and probably more useful in the real world.
Just goes to prove the theory that students copy instructors. Monkey see, monkey do.
I would love to hear Frank Robsinson opinion of this shutdown "procedure".
What's wrong with terminating every training flight with a steep approach/running landing/stuck pedal landing/downwind approach/governor off approach. They are all just as valid skills as doing an auto, and probably more useful in the real world.
Just goes to prove the theory that students copy instructors. Monkey see, monkey do.
I would love to hear Frank Robsinson opinion of this shutdown "procedure".
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I'm with Gaseous but I wouldnt auto every landing. I think its healthy to keep in practice with all modes of flight.
Lets not forget:
1. Autogyro pilots autorotate every landing [and every takeoff] and dont have to rely on a tail rotor.
2. Many power pilots all their faith in their engine that when it stops theres a long pause while they try to understand whats wrong. A partial power failure is far worse than complete failure as it increases this thinking time. I've had one.
3. I'd rather fly with Gaseous [and I have] than someone who only practices autos once per year.
OOW
Lets not forget:
1. Autogyro pilots autorotate every landing [and every takeoff] and dont have to rely on a tail rotor.
2. Many power pilots all their faith in their engine that when it stops theres a long pause while they try to understand whats wrong. A partial power failure is far worse than complete failure as it increases this thinking time. I've had one.
3. I'd rather fly with Gaseous [and I have] than someone who only practices autos once per year.
OOW
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I dont fly a Robinson so Franks opinion not relevant nor is the bit about governors. Heres a quote from a very well respected pilot, David Voy from 2006 about a similar subject.
I was flying the police Enstroms over London in the 1970's that suffered clutch failures on two occations. The first has been metioned by "Gaseous" when I was over Clapham Junction and did an engine off onto Battersea Heliport. The second was close to Stratford Railway Goods Yard in East London and involved another engine off under some pylon wires.
Both were achieved succesfully, in my view, because we constantly practiced autorotations - sometimes 5 or more per day. When the emergency occured I was completely confident that I could execute the engine off with total accuracy. That only comes with practive and training.
Both were achieved succesfully, in my view, because we constantly practiced autorotations - sometimes 5 or more per day. When the emergency occured I was completely confident that I could execute the engine off with total accuracy. That only comes with practive and training.
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Fair enough Manfromuncle.
I didnt clarify it was an Enstrom and to be fair I hated doing autorotations in an R22.
The aircraft I fly is the one referred to by David Voy, and like him, I am as confident as I can be that I can get it down if need be, with the best possible chance of not bending it.
Your right, it may be an odd way to fly but as a habit, autoing the last approach of the day when I return home has kept me sharp, kept it quiet, cooled it down and I enjoy it.
As I said though. No more
I didnt clarify it was an Enstrom and to be fair I hated doing autorotations in an R22.
The aircraft I fly is the one referred to by David Voy, and like him, I am as confident as I can be that I can get it down if need be, with the best possible chance of not bending it.
Your right, it may be an odd way to fly but as a habit, autoing the last approach of the day when I return home has kept me sharp, kept it quiet, cooled it down and I enjoy it.
As I said though. No more
Last edited by Gaseous; 25th Apr 2008 at 14:22.
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Crazy stuff
Autorotations to the ground, if taught properly at ab-initio and practiced annually, at least biennually are NOT a perishable skill. If a pilot perishes his skill so quickly that it is noticeable at this frequency, then he should not be a pilot and would demonstrate it at his annual check.
I agree that;
1) chopping a throttle without reason may lead to an unexpected engine stop,
2) putting the sprag clutch, or freewheel, to excess use would be in contravention of the normal expected usage, and therefore could be hazardous, I.E. lead to a before than usual TBO failure.
3) shock cooling of cylinders leads to top end failures (of the cylinder)
4) sudden and sustained reductions in power will lead to shock cooling of cylinders.
tet
Autorotations to the ground, if taught properly at ab-initio and practiced annually, at least biennually are NOT a perishable skill. If a pilot perishes his skill so quickly that it is noticeable at this frequency, then he should not be a pilot and would demonstrate it at his annual check.
I agree that;
1) chopping a throttle without reason may lead to an unexpected engine stop,
2) putting the sprag clutch, or freewheel, to excess use would be in contravention of the normal expected usage, and therefore could be hazardous, I.E. lead to a before than usual TBO failure.
3) shock cooling of cylinders leads to top end failures (of the cylinder)
4) sudden and sustained reductions in power will lead to shock cooling of cylinders.
tet
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Manfromuncle: >> Are you serious? What on Earth are you doing out there that you see the need to enter a power-off auto all the way down to 150'?<<
read my post again. The need is quite clear – PRACTICE.
R44 not R22. As a R22 owner over ten years ago, I’m now personally convinced low time PPLs and those that never practise entry into auto (other than once a year on their LPC) just never get that lever down fast enough in a 22. Wasting two seconds in an R22 with the surprise of much more yaw than in any practise, I think has killed more than a few pilots. I’m gob-smacked that any instructor out there thinks it’s a bad idea for a 500 hour PPL not to practise autos a few times a year when one up, no passengers, in a 44.
Red-eye: >> There have been lots of damage based on people entering autorotation in the 44 and rolling the Nr right over the top (no pips to tell you its coming..).<<
So what? - never ever practise then? My argument is about flight safety, not the underwriter’s profits. I get the opposition loud and clear. The list is long:
Flying schools that don’t want students practicing autos solo (of course)
Self-fly hire outfits that don’t want to risk overspeeds
Underwriters that want to avoid every possible potential risk and claim
Insurance companies that don’t want to argue with underwriters
Again, so what? I don’t need to be told why the insurers want to minimise their risk, but I’m saying it’s an unreasonable condition.
A very interesting gulf opening up here in attitudes between the PPLs and commercial guys. Firstly, I’m not a fresh PPL – been flying Robbos and my B47 for eighteen years now. Absolutely agree low hour pilots shouldn’t be practising without an instructor, but is anyone seriously suggesting that practising autos for a constantly current 100hr a year pilot with his own machine is a bad idea? What this tells me is, because it isn’t a routine to practise autos in commercial work (of course) that you don’t appreciate the importance of PPLs flying every couple of weeks practising them now and again. Either that or the cushion of a turbine or two makes you think it’ll never happen to you. I’m not talking about steaming around, doing them all the time and chucking her into auto descents all the time just to get down. Far from it – just practicing say every quarter and recovering at around 500’ – I’m amazed than anyone thinks that’s not a good idea! I only said 150’ because I need the flexibility from the insurers (i.e. not to the ground). This new condition prohibiting autos is like your car insurance preventing you from doing more than 30 miles an hour. I’m not going to accept this condition, otherwise I’m moving companies.
Nigelh: All agreed. But the wording on the new policy is no autorotations. I have asked them to change the wording to no EOLs and that’s what I’m having trouble getting out of them.
bb in ca: Sorry, but sneering at all PPLs as if we’re all the same with the same attitudes means your comments go straight in the bin.
read my post again. The need is quite clear – PRACTICE.
R44 not R22. As a R22 owner over ten years ago, I’m now personally convinced low time PPLs and those that never practise entry into auto (other than once a year on their LPC) just never get that lever down fast enough in a 22. Wasting two seconds in an R22 with the surprise of much more yaw than in any practise, I think has killed more than a few pilots. I’m gob-smacked that any instructor out there thinks it’s a bad idea for a 500 hour PPL not to practise autos a few times a year when one up, no passengers, in a 44.
Red-eye: >> There have been lots of damage based on people entering autorotation in the 44 and rolling the Nr right over the top (no pips to tell you its coming..).<<
So what? - never ever practise then? My argument is about flight safety, not the underwriter’s profits. I get the opposition loud and clear. The list is long:
Flying schools that don’t want students practicing autos solo (of course)
Self-fly hire outfits that don’t want to risk overspeeds
Underwriters that want to avoid every possible potential risk and claim
Insurance companies that don’t want to argue with underwriters
Again, so what? I don’t need to be told why the insurers want to minimise their risk, but I’m saying it’s an unreasonable condition.
A very interesting gulf opening up here in attitudes between the PPLs and commercial guys. Firstly, I’m not a fresh PPL – been flying Robbos and my B47 for eighteen years now. Absolutely agree low hour pilots shouldn’t be practising without an instructor, but is anyone seriously suggesting that practising autos for a constantly current 100hr a year pilot with his own machine is a bad idea? What this tells me is, because it isn’t a routine to practise autos in commercial work (of course) that you don’t appreciate the importance of PPLs flying every couple of weeks practising them now and again. Either that or the cushion of a turbine or two makes you think it’ll never happen to you. I’m not talking about steaming around, doing them all the time and chucking her into auto descents all the time just to get down. Far from it – just practicing say every quarter and recovering at around 500’ – I’m amazed than anyone thinks that’s not a good idea! I only said 150’ because I need the flexibility from the insurers (i.e. not to the ground). This new condition prohibiting autos is like your car insurance preventing you from doing more than 30 miles an hour. I’m not going to accept this condition, otherwise I’m moving companies.
Nigelh: All agreed. But the wording on the new policy is no autorotations. I have asked them to change the wording to no EOLs and that’s what I’m having trouble getting out of them.
bb in ca: Sorry, but sneering at all PPLs as if we’re all the same with the same attitudes means your comments go straight in the bin.
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stats
Just out of interest, has anybody got any stats to compare accidents caused by a pilot not reacting correctly to a situation that required an auto, as against stats for accidents caused by pilots practicing autos by themselves?
Might be interesting to find out. At the moment i'm inclined to side with the insurers on this, but havn't seen any facts to back my gut reaction up.
Might be interesting to find out. At the moment i'm inclined to side with the insurers on this, but havn't seen any facts to back my gut reaction up.
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Sadly the argument has become a circular one. Autorotations have become a big deal instead of a normal exercise so people don't practice them routinely. Therefore there is a greater chance that when it is important, like when the donk has lost power, wholly or partially, there will be hesitation before lowering the lever - not a good idea in R22's.
I have a strong suspicion that in R22 accidents where the witnesses said the engine was making unusual noises, then the rotor seemed to be going slowly and the blades and the tail broke up, it was simply that the pilot didn't lower the lever. The technique of entering auto should not be a problem and the insurance companies are not actually IMHO increasing safety. I am not aware of accidents due to autorotations per se. EOL's are something completely different and should only be flown with a competent instructor.
I have a strong suspicion that in R22 accidents where the witnesses said the engine was making unusual noises, then the rotor seemed to be going slowly and the blades and the tail broke up, it was simply that the pilot didn't lower the lever. The technique of entering auto should not be a problem and the insurance companies are not actually IMHO increasing safety. I am not aware of accidents due to autorotations per se. EOL's are something completely different and should only be flown with a competent instructor.
My question is ...WHY tell them ?? Nobody is going to know if you do an auto or just a steep approach ......i am sure it is not allowed to fly with your old man in your hand but we all do it .....well maybe in someone elses 
and unless you tell them they will be blissfully ignorant 
Otherwise just change companies ...in 25 yrs i have never had that imposed on me . I think discretion is the word .......
and unless you tell them they will be blissfully ignorant Otherwise just change companies ...in 25 yrs i have never had that imposed on me . I think discretion is the word .......
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I hate to sound a little jerked off here BUT, you chaps who are stating that to regularly do and practice Autos is way out of line and shows some sort of lack of ability,... well being a PPL(H) and very proud of my ability means that every time I fly I am prepared for things to go quiet, or lumpy or anything to do with the lumps of ally not doing what Mr Lycoming planned them to do,..
Now to listen to you people saying Autos should only be done with a Fi makes me feel sort of sad really , for it sounds like you feel that we as mere PPLs dont have what it takes to be trusted to practise what could be the only move left in the end game when Mr Lycoming spits his dummy out and things go silent.
I for one will during every flight I make carry out some sort of practice Auto, I have no fear of my ability at this moment in time, I am always questioning my every move when flying, but equally I have no fear of Autos or the recovery from such moves.
I have flown with many pilots, all of them have showed me how they practice their Autos, so we PPLs are not alone!
Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB
Now to listen to you people saying Autos should only be done with a Fi makes me feel sort of sad really , for it sounds like you feel that we as mere PPLs dont have what it takes to be trusted to practise what could be the only move left in the end game when Mr Lycoming spits his dummy out and things go silent.
I for one will during every flight I make carry out some sort of practice Auto, I have no fear of my ability at this moment in time, I am always questioning my every move when flying, but equally I have no fear of Autos or the recovery from such moves.
I have flown with many pilots, all of them have showed me how they practice their Autos, so we PPLs are not alone!
Peter R-B
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I for one will during every flight I make carry out some sort of practice Auto, I have no fear of my ability at this moment in time, I am always questioning my every move when flying, but equally I have no fear of Autos or the recovery from such moves.
And in each instance, you practice that auto into appropriate wind and to a spot where a touch down would be successful?
George
And in each instance, you practice that auto into appropriate wind and to a spot where a touch down would be successful?
George
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I would have thought that if you are in the position to own and operate your own helicopter then you could also afford one hours dual per month? Go off and practice clearing approaches, towering take-offs, downwind landings, hover exercises like a pedal turn one way whilst describing a circle over the ground in the opposite direction, sloping ground landings, X wind landings etc. etc. just one exercise per dual hour then come back to a field and do several practice autos with the FI, to the ground if allowed?
Those thinking of changing insurers, you will probably find that the underwriters have been talking to each other and agreed some standard terms and conditions, highly likely they will all be the same.
nigelh - You may want to familiarise yourself with the ramifications of non-disclosure of essential information. If your policy says you mustn't do it and you haven't agreed an additional premium with your insurer to allow you to do it and you go ahead anyway your policy is void.
The onus is on you, the insured, to keep the insurer fully advised. Not telling the underwriter but doing it anyway is pushing your luck
Those thinking of changing insurers, you will probably find that the underwriters have been talking to each other and agreed some standard terms and conditions, highly likely they will all be the same.
nigelh - You may want to familiarise yourself with the ramifications of non-disclosure of essential information. If your policy says you mustn't do it and you haven't agreed an additional premium with your insurer to allow you to do it and you go ahead anyway your policy is void.
The onus is on you, the insured, to keep the insurer fully advised. Not telling the underwriter but doing it anyway is pushing your luck
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I gave my opinions earlier.
There’s a very fine line between over confidence and actual ability, I’m not suggesting that the people who posted earlier are overconfident but it is possible. If you actually damaged the helicopter RRPM over speed for example practicing an auto, which is very easy to do in some helicopters, would you say something or keep quiet (assuming you don’t own the aircraft, but even if you do it needs to be reported)
As Parabellum said if you can afford your own machine you can afford to fly with an instructor once a month to practice a few autos. You’ll gain a lot more from it than practicing alone.
Practice alone at your own peril.
There’s a very fine line between over confidence and actual ability, I’m not suggesting that the people who posted earlier are overconfident but it is possible. If you actually damaged the helicopter RRPM over speed for example practicing an auto, which is very easy to do in some helicopters, would you say something or keep quiet (assuming you don’t own the aircraft, but even if you do it needs to be reported)
As Parabellum said if you can afford your own machine you can afford to fly with an instructor once a month to practice a few autos. You’ll gain a lot more from it than practicing alone.
Practice alone at your own peril.
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Someone asked about stats. Checking through VeeAnys database there are loads of accidents with FIs on board and guess what? Not found any with PPLs doing autos on their own.
You mean a bit like the hughes that crashed into a hillside in cumbria when the hugely experienced examiner sprung an auto on the PPL owner, with nowhere to land and it all went bad, allegedley.
Seems to me the risk to helis is when FIs with students do engine off LANDINGS. Not PPLS doing the odd auto to the recovery in private.
And in each instance, you practice that auto into appropriate wind and to a spot where a touch down would be successful?
Seems to me the risk to helis is when FIs with students do engine off LANDINGS. Not PPLS doing the odd auto to the recovery in private.
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I'm a commercial driver who does annual training mostly only once a year but on 4 different types. Almost 3000 hours and 3 real life auto's (2 with the engine still running...kind of) I find no benefit of actually doing an auto..power recovery or EOL...without an instructor as absolutely ridiculous. The whole point of the excercise is to practice, granted. BUT to do so without a second set of eyes to point out some of the finer details is absolutely dumb. Even myself when doing autorevs on the turbines I still take somebody with equal or more experience at least for no other reason than to critique various stages of the auto...EVEN THOUGH IT"S A POWER RECOVERY. If you want to do it on a regular basis, become an instructor...THAT's WHAT THEY DO. Otherwise do yourself a favour and hire one once in a while at least for no other reason than to knock that "Pride" down a few notches. Hell, at 500 hrs, if my boss found out I was shooting power recovery's to any height without an instructor or second set of eyes he would have kicked my ass out the door so fast that said ass would still have the boot lodged in it to this day. Maybe you should get your head out of yours
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Any stats on how many successful EOLs have been accomplished by FI and student?
There seems to be a real divergence of opinions here. The ex colonials, CPLs and new PPLS see autos as an emergency only thing. the old timer PPLs see them as routine as any other flight manouver. Maybe attitudes have changed and us old timers are out of date. Maybe we all trainedat the same school??