Downwind Autorotations?
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Evalu8ter:
A very good point, I can see no reason to enter anything other than a gentle turn through no more than 90 degrees following an engine failure.
Best Wishes
Too many people have got fixated on the turn and not made the landing...
Best Wishes
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: mostly in the jungle...
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" The concept of continuing on for a downwind touchdown is one that I've not considered before this discussion: I'll certainly give it some thought, but I'm not sure that I'd be happy to risk an aircraft on a training sortie..."
Heli, I assume you refer to my post about practising advanced maneuvers...
Certainly you would not practise (and risk the aircraft) with a actual downwind run-on auto!
BUT you can practise with a faster than usual (look for about 30 kts IAS, just before you touch - you will be slower actually touching, ....in the aircraft I have at this time - AS350B3) into the wind running on auto.
It is not so much the actual speed on touch down, but the correct attitude - IF you can manage: slightest hint of nose (skid front) low, plenty of RRPM (keeps you in control of the tail), I would not worry to much about the actual speed, but on keeping it straight after touch down....
AGAIN: I am not promoting general take-offs or autos downwind!!
In very isolated cases though the situation may prefer a downwind take-off.
There is absolutely no question, that you will turn into the wind in an auto - if you can!!
helicfii:
We may face a similar decision making dilemma.
I am having a hard time getting my point understood. I wish I could demo the case in reality, on site, with the prevailing conditions.
NOT the downwind auto, but the minimum exposed time, weighing off - into the wind versus downwind...
Your case may be somewhat easier as I assume you have a twin and fly it accordingly.
In your case it would also depend on, what is immediately after the powerlines (....for me). If you have any failure on top of or before the powerlines - what are you options?
Loosing a donk downwind on the taxiway, what are your options? Are you still flying away on the other engine?
You loose your one engine (in a single) before the lines or on top ? Where'd you go?
You think you can run the aircraft on as a gyroplane downwind?
As I said, if one even considers a downwind operation, it will always depend on the specific situation - I would not ever dream of generalizing anything downwind!!
Fly safe!
3top
PS: Volunteering for one of those all-out 50 ft/130kts sorties in a Gazelle!
.....any direction!
" The concept of continuing on for a downwind touchdown is one that I've not considered before this discussion: I'll certainly give it some thought, but I'm not sure that I'd be happy to risk an aircraft on a training sortie..."
Heli, I assume you refer to my post about practising advanced maneuvers...
Certainly you would not practise (and risk the aircraft) with a actual downwind run-on auto!
BUT you can practise with a faster than usual (look for about 30 kts IAS, just before you touch - you will be slower actually touching, ....in the aircraft I have at this time - AS350B3) into the wind running on auto.
It is not so much the actual speed on touch down, but the correct attitude - IF you can manage: slightest hint of nose (skid front) low, plenty of RRPM (keeps you in control of the tail), I would not worry to much about the actual speed, but on keeping it straight after touch down....
AGAIN: I am not promoting general take-offs or autos downwind!!
In very isolated cases though the situation may prefer a downwind take-off.
There is absolutely no question, that you will turn into the wind in an auto - if you can!!
helicfii:
We may face a similar decision making dilemma.
I am having a hard time getting my point understood. I wish I could demo the case in reality, on site, with the prevailing conditions.
NOT the downwind auto, but the minimum exposed time, weighing off - into the wind versus downwind...
Your case may be somewhat easier as I assume you have a twin and fly it accordingly.
In your case it would also depend on, what is immediately after the powerlines (....for me). If you have any failure on top of or before the powerlines - what are you options?
Loosing a donk downwind on the taxiway, what are your options? Are you still flying away on the other engine?
You loose your one engine (in a single) before the lines or on top ? Where'd you go?
You think you can run the aircraft on as a gyroplane downwind?
As I said, if one even considers a downwind operation, it will always depend on the specific situation - I would not ever dream of generalizing anything downwind!!
Fly safe!
3top
PS: Volunteering for one of those all-out 50 ft/130kts sorties in a Gazelle!
.....any direction!
Last edited by 3top; 23rd Apr 2008 at 17:56. Reason: colors
PS: Volunteering for one of those all-out 50 ft/130kts sorties in a Gazelle! .....any direction!
The large high tension cables were often taken at the cruise...sometimes even in pairs.
Roadside telephone and electricity wires were scraped under at a hover taxi!
On one exercise, as I moved forward to a likely FAC observation position, I hover taxied along the right hand side of a small (500m sq) wood.
My oppo, the flight commander, was moving forward to cover me on the left hand side of the wood.
3x 30,000V wires came into view to my front about 20ft high, simply slung out in front of me,running out of the trees from a pole inside the wood, at right angles to me, stretching to an unseen pole out on the right somewhere.
A quick warning radio call to the Flt Cdr. "Wires from wood... my side.. low"
"I know. Iv'e just hit them"
He had just dumped the lever and landed.
One of his pitch rods was completely burnt through.
We had no wire cutters in those days.
The Gazelle was recovered that afternoon.
He got another machine and on went the exercise.
Evalu8tr,
Toss in 33 or 44 field ready infantry with a 130 pounds of kit each, full fuel, hot and high takeoff as done in Afghanistan daily......and tell me about that great wonderful single engine hover capability.
Empty Chinook....well hells bells...lots of oomph in that rotor system.
Toss in 33 or 44 field ready infantry with a 130 pounds of kit each, full fuel, hot and high takeoff as done in Afghanistan daily......and tell me about that great wonderful single engine hover capability.
Empty Chinook....well hells bells...lots of oomph in that rotor system.
SASLess,
Quite so chap, and I have run out of power in a Chinook a few times. The trick for a wokka driver is to remember your mortality in Afg and treat her like a "real" helo, not just in terms of power but also control authority, and plan your approaches and departures accordingly.
However, in the UK, at ISA, OEI hover IGE at full fuel (3000Kg) and about 2500Kg of troops / cargo is a happy place to be compared to most helos, you don't have any TR / MR torque considerations on the roll out and the aircaft is designed, and the crews trained, to land at up to 60kts IAS.
Best place to practise 180 EOLs? The simulator!! Though a competition to do EOLs to the Carrier in the Sim was quite interesting.....
Quite so chap, and I have run out of power in a Chinook a few times. The trick for a wokka driver is to remember your mortality in Afg and treat her like a "real" helo, not just in terms of power but also control authority, and plan your approaches and departures accordingly.
However, in the UK, at ISA, OEI hover IGE at full fuel (3000Kg) and about 2500Kg of troops / cargo is a happy place to be compared to most helos, you don't have any TR / MR torque considerations on the roll out and the aircaft is designed, and the crews trained, to land at up to 60kts IAS.
Best place to practise 180 EOLs? The simulator!! Though a competition to do EOLs to the Carrier in the Sim was quite interesting.....
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I think the main point here is:
1. Know you're aircraft and how it can handle. Some are good in auto, some are a real *itch.
2. It depends on how high you are and point 1. In Iraq we tried not to be much above 50ft, in which case what you see in front is what you get regardless of the wind. Or Uber high in which case you have options.
3. How competant you are. If you have a good option infront which is downwind and you are not confident of a 180 due to height etc then go for it and accept a bumpy one that you can walk away from.
When low level on my type and the others that I have been on the most you will get is 30 degrees either way. That is what has been taught for a while and that is what I have been taught to teach.
1. Know you're aircraft and how it can handle. Some are good in auto, some are a real *itch.
2. It depends on how high you are and point 1. In Iraq we tried not to be much above 50ft, in which case what you see in front is what you get regardless of the wind. Or Uber high in which case you have options.
3. How competant you are. If you have a good option infront which is downwind and you are not confident of a 180 due to height etc then go for it and accept a bumpy one that you can walk away from.
When low level on my type and the others that I have been on the most you will get is 30 degrees either way. That is what has been taught for a while and that is what I have been taught to teach.
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helicfii
I sincerely hope that you don't get to fly in france, engine failure for you may become commone.
Back to original question, which needs to be applauded for a probationary.
not all people have the gumption to ask, or think, what if.
May I respond by saying that I hope for you that you have an instructor who teaches you EOL's to the ground, both as a zero zero excercise and as a deliberate run on.
Never practice downwind EOL's (onto the ground I mean)
hopefully you are also taught and encouraged to practice the different flight profiles of hot, heavy all the way to light, cool, no wind, and or big mobs of wind.
Then you will deveolp a "PICTURE" that you will automatically "SEE" as to where you will get to.
You should have also been taught to always "LOOK" for where you will land "IF" the unforeseen happens.
It is fair to say that in a downwinmd situation that it is much easier to fall out of the bottom of the EOL. The answer to that is simple, you will probably have presented the aircraft in a situation where it is suddenly descending at only 300 to 500 feet per minute, with pitch pulled and the airflow is presenting ( by virtue of the downwind configuration) downward and forward of your position.
This can also happen in light winds (less than five knots headwind) where you have flared and pitch pulled and propelled your rotorwash into where you will descend.
It will never happen in a crosswind as your spent and distrubed air will be blown sideways away from you. (just get in a stationary hover at about thirty feet, in a dusty place whilst pedal turning and see what happens to your rotorwash in any sort of a wind.)
Falling out of the bottom of the EOL is not something to worry unduly about, you may touch down slightly heavy at worst.
if you had a genereous instructor to take you through all of that, then you will have the tools to decide whether at any time you "NEED" to turn to the downwiund cleared area or go into wind into the unfriendly jungle.
it's just like a tumbling excercise, if you know how to fall, do you tuck your head and roll, in the split of a second, or fall flat on your face?
good luck tet
I sincerely hope that you don't get to fly in france, engine failure for you may become commone.
Back to original question, which needs to be applauded for a probationary.
not all people have the gumption to ask, or think, what if.
May I respond by saying that I hope for you that you have an instructor who teaches you EOL's to the ground, both as a zero zero excercise and as a deliberate run on.
Never practice downwind EOL's (onto the ground I mean)
hopefully you are also taught and encouraged to practice the different flight profiles of hot, heavy all the way to light, cool, no wind, and or big mobs of wind.
Then you will deveolp a "PICTURE" that you will automatically "SEE" as to where you will get to.
You should have also been taught to always "LOOK" for where you will land "IF" the unforeseen happens.
It is fair to say that in a downwinmd situation that it is much easier to fall out of the bottom of the EOL. The answer to that is simple, you will probably have presented the aircraft in a situation where it is suddenly descending at only 300 to 500 feet per minute, with pitch pulled and the airflow is presenting ( by virtue of the downwind configuration) downward and forward of your position.
This can also happen in light winds (less than five knots headwind) where you have flared and pitch pulled and propelled your rotorwash into where you will descend.
It will never happen in a crosswind as your spent and distrubed air will be blown sideways away from you. (just get in a stationary hover at about thirty feet, in a dusty place whilst pedal turning and see what happens to your rotorwash in any sort of a wind.)
Falling out of the bottom of the EOL is not something to worry unduly about, you may touch down slightly heavy at worst.
if you had a genereous instructor to take you through all of that, then you will have the tools to decide whether at any time you "NEED" to turn to the downwiund cleared area or go into wind into the unfriendly jungle.
it's just like a tumbling excercise, if you know how to fall, do you tuck your head and roll, in the split of a second, or fall flat on your face?
good luck tet
