Cost for annual
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 58
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did you ask the them to Kiss you when you got the bill?
Having owned three 44s over the past ten years I would seriously be interested to a clue to WHO whacked you with that bill.
When I get f***ed I like to be kissed at the same time!!!! And I would certainly question that bill.
If my current 44 R2 annual is above £1700/£1800 then it goes on my "look at it further" bills pile.
There are some great engineers out there charging sensible prices for private owners. Try Glenn at GB Engineering in Leeds for one.
Why, oh why, is there this widespread opinion of "If you can afford a Rolls don't whinge about the petrol" syndrome associated with helicopters.
Everyone should get a good job for a fair price....!!!!!! But don't forget we do live in RIP-OFF BRITAIN.
Rgds.
When I get f***ed I like to be kissed at the same time!!!! And I would certainly question that bill.
If my current 44 R2 annual is above £1700/£1800 then it goes on my "look at it further" bills pile.
There are some great engineers out there charging sensible prices for private owners. Try Glenn at GB Engineering in Leeds for one.
Why, oh why, is there this widespread opinion of "If you can afford a Rolls don't whinge about the petrol" syndrome associated with helicopters.
Everyone should get a good job for a fair price....!!!!!! But don't forget we do live in RIP-OFF BRITAIN.
Rgds.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome to PPRuNe Englebert.
My engineer does. I got billed quite rightly for the swashplate and TR overhaul this time. It was a good job at a fair price on top of the usual annual fee.
We dont think you're all out to rip us off. Some of us appreciate your work for preserving our backsides.
As a fairly old hand at working with various engineers over the years I have come up with a list of things that annoy owners and pilots, some from this thread, some of my own. Some anecdotally from other owners. One or two of these have annoyed me over the years. A lot come from friends in the plank world. Here it is:
Work done without explanation or permission, resulting in an unexpected large bill.
no itemised bill
Inspections carried out and parts replaced not required by the schedule.
Star annual done instead of routine annual (yes really!)
Hours logged but not worked. (anecdotal)
Paying for time when engineer is on phone about other jobs.
Hours worked on the CAA paperwork charged on top.
Muffin's new POH and first aid kit - I hope you queried that one.
Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were OK.
Scrap parts disposed of without the owner seeing them or owners permission
Changing 'sets' of parts like rod ends and bearings rather than just worn ones.
Changing parts That are well worn but within spec.
Fixed price services done in very short time.
Damage to paint
dents to panels
filthy cockpits on return
filthy transparencies
filthy paint
oil everywhere
inflated consumable prices
Inflated carriage prices on parts.
Inflated parts prices - including procuring them from the most expensive possible source.
Extended AOG times.
CAA fees.
using regulation changes to as an excuse to inflate the bill.
Lack of explanation/apology when things do go wrong.
Most of the time owners dont grumble about these to the engineer. They just pay the bill but moan like hell to other pilots.
Avoid these(where possible) and most owners will be happy.
What doesnt annoy me are genuine errors and oversights.
I'm sure you could come up with a list of things owners do to annoy engineers. That would be interesting.
edit. I need a new engineer so I asked in another thread. The feedback I've got for all the local ones has been without exception very positive so clearly lots are getting it right.
We don't get paid any extra for changing worn out parts.
My engineer does. I got billed quite rightly for the swashplate and TR overhaul this time. It was a good job at a fair price on top of the usual annual fee. We dont think you're all out to rip us off. Some of us appreciate your work for preserving our backsides.
As a fairly old hand at working with various engineers over the years I have come up with a list of things that annoy owners and pilots, some from this thread, some of my own. Some anecdotally from other owners. One or two of these have annoyed me over the years. A lot come from friends in the plank world. Here it is:
Work done without explanation or permission, resulting in an unexpected large bill.
no itemised bill
Inspections carried out and parts replaced not required by the schedule.
Star annual done instead of routine annual (yes really!)
Hours logged but not worked. (anecdotal)
Paying for time when engineer is on phone about other jobs.
Hours worked on the CAA paperwork charged on top.
Muffin's new POH and first aid kit - I hope you queried that one.
Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were OK.
Scrap parts disposed of without the owner seeing them or owners permission
Changing 'sets' of parts like rod ends and bearings rather than just worn ones.
Changing parts That are well worn but within spec.
Fixed price services done in very short time.
Damage to paint
dents to panels
filthy cockpits on return
filthy transparencies
filthy paint
oil everywhere
inflated consumable prices
Inflated carriage prices on parts.
Inflated parts prices - including procuring them from the most expensive possible source.
Extended AOG times.
CAA fees.
using regulation changes to as an excuse to inflate the bill.
Lack of explanation/apology when things do go wrong.
Most of the time owners dont grumble about these to the engineer. They just pay the bill but moan like hell to other pilots.
Avoid these(where possible) and most owners will be happy.
What doesnt annoy me are genuine errors and oversights.
I'm sure you could come up with a list of things owners do to annoy engineers. That would be interesting.
edit. I need a new engineer so I asked in another thread. The feedback I've got for all the local ones has been without exception very positive so clearly lots are getting it right.
Last edited by Gaseous; 2nd Apr 2008 at 01:03.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North of Soton
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Things that Pilot do to Annoy engineers? Well I don't think there would be enough room on the Server to get it in, so howabout breathe for a start!
Gaseous, some of the points you raised in your list are relevant, other are not, extended AOG times, we don't make them the suppliers do. Do you think we like keeping your aircraft sat around when we could get it out the door and earn money on something else?
Buying Parts from the most expensive sources? Well the amount of places you can buy parts is quite limited, most companies don't get any discounts on supply and it is only fair that a small administration charge is applied for Batching in and handling, which all takes time. Also ringing around 20 different people to find you a part for a couple of quid cheaper takes a lot of time as well, as for not seeing unserviceable parts, lots of them do have to returned as core deposits, or alternatively you can have the core charge added on, which trust me you wouldn't like.
If you have genuine concerns over your bills, then sitting down and have things explained properly with the chief Enginneer would be the best route forward, whinging on a website about it isn't.
Oh, and lastly, who do you expect to pick up all of the extra regulatory costs from the CAA?
Rant over!
Gaseous, some of the points you raised in your list are relevant, other are not, extended AOG times, we don't make them the suppliers do. Do you think we like keeping your aircraft sat around when we could get it out the door and earn money on something else?
Buying Parts from the most expensive sources? Well the amount of places you can buy parts is quite limited, most companies don't get any discounts on supply and it is only fair that a small administration charge is applied for Batching in and handling, which all takes time. Also ringing around 20 different people to find you a part for a couple of quid cheaper takes a lot of time as well, as for not seeing unserviceable parts, lots of them do have to returned as core deposits, or alternatively you can have the core charge added on, which trust me you wouldn't like.
If you have genuine concerns over your bills, then sitting down and have things explained properly with the chief Enginneer would be the best route forward, whinging on a website about it isn't.
Oh, and lastly, who do you expect to pick up all of the extra regulatory costs from the CAA?
Rant over!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peasacake glad you mentioned those nice people. I last flew R22 to them 10 years ago then I got a job which took me away from R22's. But back then they were always very accommodating and down to earth I am glad to hear this is still the case, doesn't surprise me really.
Guys if you read this, soon you can buy a Scirocco again for your wife.
Guys if you read this, soon you can buy a Scirocco again for your wife.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Luton
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaseous
" Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were o.k. "
1. The last time I checked, the owner was not certifying the work, so if the licensed engineer deems an item beyond limits or will not last to the next S.M.I. he is entitled to replace the item or refuse to sign the aircraft out ( which will cost you more money for a 2nd inspection of the aircraft ). Of coarse a owner should be informed of defects, but he does not have a right to veto aircraft safety issues
2. In the past, when letting marginal items go, ( to please the owner ) then when the item fails before the next S.M.I. you - the owner cries foul play that way. ( You've only just checked that last month you moan ! ).
Unfortunatly to many owners want their cake and to eat it - at everone elses expense
I guess aircraft owners in making their fortunes always charge a fair price for their product / service - NOT !
" Bits changed without explanation - that the owner thinks were o.k. "
1. The last time I checked, the owner was not certifying the work, so if the licensed engineer deems an item beyond limits or will not last to the next S.M.I. he is entitled to replace the item or refuse to sign the aircraft out ( which will cost you more money for a 2nd inspection of the aircraft ). Of coarse a owner should be informed of defects, but he does not have a right to veto aircraft safety issues
2. In the past, when letting marginal items go, ( to please the owner ) then when the item fails before the next S.M.I. you - the owner cries foul play that way. ( You've only just checked that last month you moan ! ).
Unfortunatly to many owners want their cake and to eat it - at everone elses expense
I guess aircraft owners in making their fortunes always charge a fair price for their product / service - NOT !
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Escrick York england
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hatters
i think what gaseous is saying that parts he thought were ok have been replaced but hes not even told untill he pickes up his machine then wham theres the bill
if i was to send one of my sparkies to your property to do a test on your electrics being previously quoted to you 130 for the check when you get home to find that he has repaced your fusebox and rewired some circuits and theres a bill for £600 to be paid would you be happy ?would you ring trading standards and contact traders from hell ?
i think there is sometimes a need to discuss this with the owner first we do with all our customers so we dont get bad customer ratings
i think most owners would want to replace parts that need replacing they are the ones that go in the air
i think what gaseous is saying that parts he thought were ok have been replaced but hes not even told untill he pickes up his machine then wham theres the bill
if i was to send one of my sparkies to your property to do a test on your electrics being previously quoted to you 130 for the check when you get home to find that he has repaced your fusebox and rewired some circuits and theres a bill for £600 to be paid would you be happy ?would you ring trading standards and contact traders from hell ?
i think there is sometimes a need to discuss this with the owner first we do with all our customers so we dont get bad customer ratings
i think most owners would want to replace parts that need replacing they are the ones that go in the air
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gods own country
Age: 75
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cost for an annual
Well Scoots now you see you are not on your own does it make you feel better ! ! we are all in the same boat, private helicopter maintainance in the uk is the same (almost) wherever you go,you get better treatment and service at a second rate car garage put it on the N reg maintainance is more sensible and you can carry out much of it yourself if you are capable.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont shoot the messenger. I am just passing on comments I have picked up over the years.
2 comments above are very revealing.
My engineer has been great. I hope I can call him a friend and wish him well in his retirement.
2 comments above are very revealing.
I guess aircraft owners in making their fortunes always charge a fair price for their product / service - NOT !
so howabout breathe for a start!
Last edited by Gaseous; 2nd Apr 2008 at 18:57.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North of Soton
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaseous.
It's not an attitude towards clients at all, I think that is quite an unfair thing to say. It was more a statement that goes all with what you were saying about things that engineers and maintenance companies do that annoy pilots. It is very much a 2 way street and sometmes both sides maybe need to communicate better. Parts on your machine that need changing and are high cost should of course be notified to the owner operator. I would not go ahead and do high cost work with out notifying the client and receiving their ok before going ahead, generally in writing (the joy of e-mail). As Hatters stated, the decision to replace the item is that of the engineer, not the owner or pilot, as he also stated you are within your rights for a second opinion.
Maintenance costs are a constant bone of contention between operators and maintainers, a reason why one of my former employers decided to set up his own 145 organisaton, a very costly exercise but one I know he is very glad he did. Generally we engineers don't change things for fun, we do it because it needs doing to ensure your continued safety, a matter we all take extremely seriously and you are right to say that you consider the engineer who used to work on your aircraft a friend, that is how the relatonship should be between 2 profession people with a high level of mutual respect.
It's not an attitude towards clients at all, I think that is quite an unfair thing to say. It was more a statement that goes all with what you were saying about things that engineers and maintenance companies do that annoy pilots. It is very much a 2 way street and sometmes both sides maybe need to communicate better. Parts on your machine that need changing and are high cost should of course be notified to the owner operator. I would not go ahead and do high cost work with out notifying the client and receiving their ok before going ahead, generally in writing (the joy of e-mail). As Hatters stated, the decision to replace the item is that of the engineer, not the owner or pilot, as he also stated you are within your rights for a second opinion.
Maintenance costs are a constant bone of contention between operators and maintainers, a reason why one of my former employers decided to set up his own 145 organisaton, a very costly exercise but one I know he is very glad he did. Generally we engineers don't change things for fun, we do it because it needs doing to ensure your continued safety, a matter we all take extremely seriously and you are right to say that you consider the engineer who used to work on your aircraft a friend, that is how the relatonship should be between 2 profession people with a high level of mutual respect.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quiche
Yes, my apologies. I was just editing that bit when you posted as it did not read quite as I intended. Your comment was clearly tongue in cheek.
I agree, its a two way street and if communication is good there should be no problem.
With regard to end of life of parts, I refer to parts where the manufacturer specifies a tolerable amount of wear. It is a simple matter to measure wear in a rod end. A few years ago I bought a selection of tools and odds and ends from an engineering concern that had gone out of business. One box contained rather a lot of identifiable by part number, used bearings and rod ends, some clearly in good condition, some just about in spec. Without the full facts it is impossible to say why they had been removed or why they had been kept but the most likely reason is not good.
Yes, my apologies. I was just editing that bit when you posted as it did not read quite as I intended. Your comment was clearly tongue in cheek.
I agree, its a two way street and if communication is good there should be no problem.
With regard to end of life of parts, I refer to parts where the manufacturer specifies a tolerable amount of wear. It is a simple matter to measure wear in a rod end. A few years ago I bought a selection of tools and odds and ends from an engineering concern that had gone out of business. One box contained rather a lot of identifiable by part number, used bearings and rod ends, some clearly in good condition, some just about in spec. Without the full facts it is impossible to say why they had been removed or why they had been kept but the most likely reason is not good.
Last edited by Gaseous; 2nd Apr 2008 at 19:56.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Puts small helicopter ownership in a slightly different light. You can buy an airworthy enstrom for that sort of money but even they get expensive when the engine times out or the M/R gearbox is due replacing or the blades get old and delaminate.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maders UK
Age: 57
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
screwed part II
Gentlemen, a quick update on my situation.
Having had the detailed parts and labour independently scrutinised by two well respected individuals in the world of rotary engineering (who are based too far from me to offer their services and thus have no axe to grind) it appears that I have indeed been overcharged.
The markup on parts varied from 30-40% over Robinson base price - maintenance organisations purchase the parts for less than this and already generate profit by selling them AT base price. This extra margin presumably reflects some form of golden touch that the parts are given on their way into my machine?
Total labour time was probably exaggerated by 20% (i:e job could have been done in 40 rather than 50 hrs).
Some of the charges were dubious but difficult to contest.
Even use of outside contractors was marked up, the avionics check had an additional £110 added to what the contractor usually charges. i:e contractor charges HMO £140, they charge me £255 for NO added value except picking the phone up and calling him and giving him a brief period of hangar access.
My "£2800 complete new muffler assembly" consists of 11 or so sub-parts.
It is highly unlikely that all 11 parts were holed and required replacing. I could have paid a fraction of this total cost but was not offered this option. The fact that I was led down the garden path with this one really horrifies me.
The 3 week downtime for mag overhaul could have been avioded by pre-booking an overhaul slot rather than waiting for the aircraft to arrive and then having to join a long queue. The HMO knew the date I was booked for more than 1 month in advance. This is basic incompetence and shows little regard for my time and aircraft downtime.
I am saddened that the trust I had in these individuals was misplaced. It disappoints me to think that people whose business I sponsor have little regard for wasting my hard earned cash and basically ripping me off.
I will be taking issue with the maintenance organisation concerned and will contest elements of the bill all the way to court if necessary.
I shall also freely spead the word that this organisation have little compunction in overcharging their customers. Somebody else advised me that I was paying them through the nose 2 years ago but I stayed with them because I am very busy and didn't need the hassle of going elsewhere. Well they have made my mind up permanently.
I would give this "new management team" 18 months max before they lose their existing customer base and the business collapses. In the meantime I'll happily fly a little further for a better deal - they have milked this cash cow once too often.
SB
Having had the detailed parts and labour independently scrutinised by two well respected individuals in the world of rotary engineering (who are based too far from me to offer their services and thus have no axe to grind) it appears that I have indeed been overcharged.
The markup on parts varied from 30-40% over Robinson base price - maintenance organisations purchase the parts for less than this and already generate profit by selling them AT base price. This extra margin presumably reflects some form of golden touch that the parts are given on their way into my machine?
Total labour time was probably exaggerated by 20% (i:e job could have been done in 40 rather than 50 hrs).
Some of the charges were dubious but difficult to contest.
Even use of outside contractors was marked up, the avionics check had an additional £110 added to what the contractor usually charges. i:e contractor charges HMO £140, they charge me £255 for NO added value except picking the phone up and calling him and giving him a brief period of hangar access.
My "£2800 complete new muffler assembly" consists of 11 or so sub-parts.
It is highly unlikely that all 11 parts were holed and required replacing. I could have paid a fraction of this total cost but was not offered this option. The fact that I was led down the garden path with this one really horrifies me.
The 3 week downtime for mag overhaul could have been avioded by pre-booking an overhaul slot rather than waiting for the aircraft to arrive and then having to join a long queue. The HMO knew the date I was booked for more than 1 month in advance. This is basic incompetence and shows little regard for my time and aircraft downtime.
I am saddened that the trust I had in these individuals was misplaced. It disappoints me to think that people whose business I sponsor have little regard for wasting my hard earned cash and basically ripping me off.
I will be taking issue with the maintenance organisation concerned and will contest elements of the bill all the way to court if necessary.
I shall also freely spead the word that this organisation have little compunction in overcharging their customers. Somebody else advised me that I was paying them through the nose 2 years ago but I stayed with them because I am very busy and didn't need the hassle of going elsewhere. Well they have made my mind up permanently.
I would give this "new management team" 18 months max before they lose their existing customer base and the business collapses. In the meantime I'll happily fly a little further for a better deal - they have milked this cash cow once too often.
SB
Scooter, I'm not very good at reading between the lines.....who is the organisation we're talking about?
On a completely different subject, who has the capability of looking after an N reg 206 in the UK? There doesn't seem to be many outfits with the necessary auths.
On a completely different subject, who has the capability of looking after an N reg 206 in the UK? There doesn't seem to be many outfits with the necessary auths.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North of Soton
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Specialist Aviation (PAS) at gloucester have a couple of A&P guys there, they have looked after G Reg 206s in the past so might be able to help out.
Give them a call 01452 857999.
I think Castle Air might be able to do N reg work as well, they have N reg 109s on their books.
Give them a call 01452 857999.
I think Castle Air might be able to do N reg work as well, they have N reg 109s on their books.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of the border
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Servicing
I would echo "Peasacake" and say go to Rotorspan at Droitwich. I use them to look after my Hughes 300C and I know I am not alone in singing their praises.
They will even lend you a car to get home in if you don't have any other option
The quality of service is excellent, Mike sets a high engineering standard and you get the lovely Diana to make you a cup of tea and listen to all your woes. It's worth the cost for that alone.
They will even lend you a car to get home in if you don't have any other option
The quality of service is excellent, Mike sets a high engineering standard and you get the lovely Diana to make you a cup of tea and listen to all your woes. It's worth the cost for that alone.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glad to hear Mike and Diana are still first class. We had many funny journeys in their company Astra down the M5. Other times we were chauffeured by either half way down the M5 in order to meet our other taxi.
Sadly I have never been to their present facilities I am told their are rather spacious compared to the old one's.
Sadly I have never been to their present facilities I am told their are rather spacious compared to the old one's.