SAR-BOYS (and girls of course) have unique powers of endurance?
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
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SAR-BOYS (and girls of course) have unique powers of endurance?
I once pulled a 27 hour continuous shift whilst flying SAR under the UK system. Thats 27 hours, 3 calls and no sleep.
What's the record?
Is this a good way of doing things?
How else could we do it?
G
What's the record?
Is this a good way of doing things?
How else could we do it?
G
Geoffers - have a second standby crew to relieve the 1st standby if they are fatigued.
Geoffers....
Try 18+55 hours flight time in 24 hours duty time.....including night, mountain, underslung loads, no NVG's....just flares on call from the local Arty lads.
Crab....no relief crews handy....most of the unit was flying other missions.
But that was in another life in a land far, far, away.
Try 18+55 hours flight time in 24 hours duty time.....including night, mountain, underslung loads, no NVG's....just flares on call from the local Arty lads.
Crab....no relief crews handy....most of the unit was flying other missions.
But that was in another life in a land far, far, away.
If it is a Willy waving contest....I will usually come last.
If the guvmint ever makes a Willy Tax....I will get a rebate!
In the Chinook, one has the luxury of getting up and walking about....and in "A" models....taking a whiz every two hours while refuelling. In extremis...there are empty ammo cans about the place for in-flight use.
If the guvmint ever makes a Willy Tax....I will get a rebate!
In the Chinook, one has the luxury of getting up and walking about....and in "A" models....taking a whiz every two hours while refuelling. In extremis...there are empty ammo cans about the place for in-flight use.
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No p****ng around here
It was actually an attempt to get a debate going about the wisdom of organising SAR ops in such a way that they are doomed to fail one day. Seems to me that turning a blind eye to fatigue is asking for trouble. Yes of course we could say No when the task comes through on the red phone but who amongst us is going to say "Sorry I'm too tired".... or "Sorry, I might be too tired in 3 hours time when we're stuck up country and doing our second refuel".
I dread the day when the Coroner gives us hell for being daft enough to press on regardless. It will change one day I guess but in true British fashion it will be after one or more of our chums has popped his clogs trying to show he (or she) is made of the right stuff.
Standby Crew? Now there's a novel idea.
G
I dread the day when the Coroner gives us hell for being daft enough to press on regardless. It will change one day I guess but in true British fashion it will be after one or more of our chums has popped his clogs trying to show he (or she) is made of the right stuff.
Standby Crew? Now there's a novel idea.
G
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It wasn't a long crew day, just late at night. We had a critical patient in the back (medics needed to defibrillate a number of times), flying through the mountains with a thick cloud ceiling overhead, nowhere to land for the next 45 minutes ahead or 30 minutes behind. Either landing option meant the patient would die. We continued on to the hospital, one hour ahead. At one point I was non-flying pilot and woke up, not sure exactly how long I was asleep, probably seconds, but who knows? I look over at the flying pilot, and woke him up. Aircraft had no autopilot, basic SAS. We did have NVG.
Probably about the worse situation we could have been in as far as fatigue goes. The only way out would have been to say 'No' initially, or at least once we were on scene we could have shut down and caught some sleep. The patient may have died if we said no, but he had better chances at a medical facility with equally qualified medics, who were probably more capable due to the fact that they're on the ground than being shaken around the dark cabin of a helicopter.
Patient made it. We flew home after a short nap and a few cups of coffee.
Matthew.
Probably about the worse situation we could have been in as far as fatigue goes. The only way out would have been to say 'No' initially, or at least once we were on scene we could have shut down and caught some sleep. The patient may have died if we said no, but he had better chances at a medical facility with equally qualified medics, who were probably more capable due to the fact that they're on the ground than being shaken around the dark cabin of a helicopter.
Patient made it. We flew home after a short nap and a few cups of coffee.
Matthew.
Here in my hometown, the fuss de jeure, is about our EMT's working "double shifts" (meaing 24's instead of 12's due to manpower shortages). The crews make excellent wages with the overtime but safety became an issue when one of the lads fell asleep on a run....with lights flashing and siren wailing...and ran out of the road and rolled the buggy.
Devil 49 has an excellent commentary about EMS scheduling problems.
Perhaps we can hear from him in the near future.
Devil 49 has an excellent commentary about EMS scheduling problems.
Perhaps we can hear from him in the near future.
It is a concern often raised in our crewrooms and one which requires the management to completely back the Captain's decision to say NO. From the SARF Cdr downwards, the message is clear, if you are too tired to fly then don't do it. There is a lot of perceived pressure on the captains to get back to base after a job or take another SARop on the bounce from a previous one - but that pressure is perceived and that is all. Many SAR captains have had an experience like Matthew Parsons and unfortunately it sometimes takes something like that to make one realise one's own human failings.
The organisation for SAROps is fine - just let the captain make his decisions and stand by them. One of the worst times to make critical decisions is when you are already tired so this is where you should always err on the safe side and, if neccessary, get your boss out of bed and tell him what you are doing. Our off going captain acts as a duty supervisor for the 1sts crew and should be able to offer advice to the duty captain if required.
The organisation for SAROps is fine - just let the captain make his decisions and stand by them. One of the worst times to make critical decisions is when you are already tired so this is where you should always err on the safe side and, if neccessary, get your boss out of bed and tell him what you are doing. Our off going captain acts as a duty supervisor for the 1sts crew and should be able to offer advice to the duty captain if required.
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One major problem with pilots, and especially military or ex-military ones ( and I certainly recognize this feature in myself too) is the conflict provided by our professional culture. On the one hand we have a can-do, wilco attitude which makes us strive to get the job done. On the other hand, our professional pride leads us to think that we will not allow such things as a little cold or a lack of sleep to prevent us from carrying out our roles to the same high standard. Lesser mortals throw in the towel, we can hack it!
The problem is , that whereas this attitude may pay dividends in high-tempo military operations, where there is an acceptable level of attrition as long as the war is won in the end - this doesnt necessarily translate well into other environments. As a result, we have to catch ourselves when we recognize a "macho" attitude creeping in to our decision-making. (I mean that in a completely non-gender-specific way, because females in aviation can and do suffer from the same self-induced pressure to perform.)
IMHO, 27 hours on duty may be an operational necessity if you are the only option in an extreme high-threat environment, where the end justifies the risks, but not in day-to-day civilian life.
The problem is , that whereas this attitude may pay dividends in high-tempo military operations, where there is an acceptable level of attrition as long as the war is won in the end - this doesnt necessarily translate well into other environments. As a result, we have to catch ourselves when we recognize a "macho" attitude creeping in to our decision-making. (I mean that in a completely non-gender-specific way, because females in aviation can and do suffer from the same self-induced pressure to perform.)
IMHO, 27 hours on duty may be an operational necessity if you are the only option in an extreme high-threat environment, where the end justifies the risks, but not in day-to-day civilian life.
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At the end of the day it boils down to commercial expedience. The best and obvious way to solve problems of fatigue etc is to man the operation to a level where fatigue is never an issue. This will then have cost implications for contract tenders and, as will usually prove the case, the cheapest bid gets the job.
Two options exist - get that master of all trades who lives in Cornwall to do an in depth analysis of crewing requirements to cover the period required effectively and safely and make it one of the criteria in the initial contract. That way, any one tendering for the contract will have to provide that manning level, thereby levelling the playing field.
Second option - develop the Coastguard responsibiliy for all SAR and build in safe standards and practices, calling on the Cornish guru once again perhaps to set the standard.
Like I said, it all boils down to money, not necessarily the standard of the service offered. Heavy reliance is made on the integrity and committment of SAR crews who are above grubby financial considerations and who are therefore taken for granted by bean counters anxious to improve the bottom line.
Two options exist - get that master of all trades who lives in Cornwall to do an in depth analysis of crewing requirements to cover the period required effectively and safely and make it one of the criteria in the initial contract. That way, any one tendering for the contract will have to provide that manning level, thereby levelling the playing field.
Second option - develop the Coastguard responsibiliy for all SAR and build in safe standards and practices, calling on the Cornish guru once again perhaps to set the standard.
Like I said, it all boils down to money, not necessarily the standard of the service offered. Heavy reliance is made on the integrity and committment of SAR crews who are above grubby financial considerations and who are therefore taken for granted by bean counters anxious to improve the bottom line.
