Low Flying Twin Turbine
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Low Flying Twin Turbine
Hi,
Every Sat morning a twin turbine helicopter (being f/w my ignorance of heli types is pretty obvious) flies over the school fields in Surrey where I take my son to footie practice. Its low - around 250ft and noisy (not that that bothers me personally).
Being a PPL, a couple of my fellow parents have turned to me and asked "are they allowed to fly that low?". Give than the heli didn't appear to be in a descent, and simply in transit, my first reaction was no; but replied "well, not strictly speaking, but it's a complicated area ATC wise" (being near EGLL). To give you an idea how low, you could clearly make out the figures of the chaps up front.
Clearly, the 500ft rule was being disregarded. It was a built up area and over a school too.
Can someone explain under what circumstances would a heli be allowed to transit at less than 500ft in the Heathrow zone?
Incidentally, it was not a police helicopter - but one of those very plush looking machines; and we regularly see it flying over the same point.
Just curious.
Every Sat morning a twin turbine helicopter (being f/w my ignorance of heli types is pretty obvious) flies over the school fields in Surrey where I take my son to footie practice. Its low - around 250ft and noisy (not that that bothers me personally).
Being a PPL, a couple of my fellow parents have turned to me and asked "are they allowed to fly that low?". Give than the heli didn't appear to be in a descent, and simply in transit, my first reaction was no; but replied "well, not strictly speaking, but it's a complicated area ATC wise" (being near EGLL). To give you an idea how low, you could clearly make out the figures of the chaps up front.
Clearly, the 500ft rule was being disregarded. It was a built up area and over a school too.
Can someone explain under what circumstances would a heli be allowed to transit at less than 500ft in the Heathrow zone?
Incidentally, it was not a police helicopter - but one of those very plush looking machines; and we regularly see it flying over the same point.
Just curious.
Someone smell something?
Get the registration of the a/c next time, go onto G-INFO on the CAA website and see who's and what type it is. Easy! Oh, and then let us know here too. We all enjoy a good laugh.
The pilot wasn't bald was he?
Helicopter wasn't dark in colour was it?
If he is 'busting' the 500' rule he's a d*ck as there really isn't any need to. Maybe he has a legitimate reason?
Get the registration of the a/c next time, go onto G-INFO on the CAA website and see who's and what type it is. Easy! Oh, and then let us know here too. We all enjoy a good laugh.
The pilot wasn't bald was he?
Helicopter wasn't dark in colour was it?
If he is 'busting' the 500' rule he's a d*ck as there really isn't any need to. Maybe he has a legitimate reason?
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Difficult to say without full info.
Could be taking off and landing when the 500 foot rule doesn't apply and/or operating under an exemption from the 1,000ft rule for landing in a congested area.
Could be taking off and landing when the 500 foot rule doesn't apply and/or operating under an exemption from the 1,000ft rule for landing in a congested area.
Tigerfish
Helimutt, Your sense of smell is impressive! But I agree there is a distict whiff in the air!
XX621. If you really are as unaware as you make out, - How do you know it was a twin turbine? Unlike fixed wing where even the most basic of observers can count the engines, to the unitiated most people would not know a single engined machine from a twin!
So you are either press, - starting another rabit to run or a fishing expedition, or were you a genuine casual observer, perhaps looking at a military Chinook going about its lawful business?
Tigerfish
XX621. If you really are as unaware as you make out, - How do you know it was a twin turbine? Unlike fixed wing where even the most basic of observers can count the engines, to the unitiated most people would not know a single engined machine from a twin!
So you are either press, - starting another rabit to run or a fishing expedition, or were you a genuine casual observer, perhaps looking at a military Chinook going about its lawful business?
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Errrrr chaps..
I'm all for giving the Press a good verbal slapping for using this site for unproductive ends, however...
A quick read of Mr XX's previous posts, does tend to suggest that you are perhaps being a little harsh..??
I'm all for giving the Press a good verbal slapping for using this site for unproductive ends, however...
A quick read of Mr XX's previous posts, does tend to suggest that you are perhaps being a little harsh..??
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In my neighbourhood of Toronto, a certain media helicopter takes liberties with the 1000' rule over the city - in other words they are always under
1000', often quite substantially. One of these days someone will take an incriminating picture and submit it to Transport Canada...
1000', often quite substantially. One of these days someone will take an incriminating picture and submit it to Transport Canada...
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If I was a journo I would hope I had better stories than low flying helicopters to work on! (mind you given the state of the british media prob not).
Anyway, as a matter of fact I do live near bishopsgate!
re: "could have been at 500ft?" - yes my height estimation could be out - true. Can't be sure. I'll take my camera next time and post a pic! (only kidding, I'm really not that bothered).
However, even if it was at 500' I'm still curious if private heli's can get special VFR in the Heathrow zone on a regular basis??
Anyway, as a matter of fact I do live near bishopsgate!
re: "could have been at 500ft?" - yes my height estimation could be out - true. Can't be sure. I'll take my camera next time and post a pic! (only kidding, I'm really not that bothered).
However, even if it was at 500' I'm still curious if private heli's can get special VFR in the Heathrow zone on a regular basis??
Tomotomp - if the guy said it was in Surrey, it was in Surrey. Not Bishopsgate. Notice how we use capitals in English.
XX621: you say you're not good with types, but you could see it was a twin. However you couldn't see a colour or reg. Hmmmm.
250 ft height is not illegal - so long as the heli remains 500ft AWAY from any person, vehicle, vessel or structure.
As you have not been precise with your location it's difficult to help - but "Surrey" would seem to imply that the aircraft was under FIS from Farnborough. Even if not, it would show as a blip on radar - although probably not if at 250ft.
So - best that you make an enquiry that way. I'm sure the Farnborough team have got plenty of time and manpower available to assist in your fishing.
Just seen your recent post
Er - yes. 7 days a week with exemplary service from AlanM and his screenwatchers.
XX621: you say you're not good with types, but you could see it was a twin. However you couldn't see a colour or reg. Hmmmm.
250 ft height is not illegal - so long as the heli remains 500ft AWAY from any person, vehicle, vessel or structure.
As you have not been precise with your location it's difficult to help - but "Surrey" would seem to imply that the aircraft was under FIS from Farnborough. Even if not, it would show as a blip on radar - although probably not if at 250ft.
So - best that you make an enquiry that way. I'm sure the Farnborough team have got plenty of time and manpower available to assist in your fishing.
Just seen your recent post
However, even if it was at 500' I'm still curious if private heli's can get special VFR in the Heathrow zone on a regular basis??
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Right, I've done some googling. From memory it looked very much like a Agusta 109 - certainly the shape and u/c config looks the same.
Anyway, just to clarify my intentions. As a fellow pilot I'm not interested in "reporting" anyone (even IF any regs had been broken). I'm just curious as to how low flying private aircraft can operate in the Heathrow zone on a regular basis (assuming it was private of course).
I assume it would have to be a twin to get special VFR in the zone for a start?
So, this is where my curiosity is leading me....if I were to purchase a twin engined aircraft could I then operate it from a field next to my house (well inside the zone) by simply requesting special VFR prior to departure everytime I wanted to fly to Chelski to see the Saturday match?! (which is what this helicopter might well be doing?). Surely not?
By the way, this is completely hypothetical. I don't own a large field, nor have the funds to purchase a flying machine! (Nor would I choose to attend Chelski games).
Anyway, just to clarify my intentions. As a fellow pilot I'm not interested in "reporting" anyone (even IF any regs had been broken). I'm just curious as to how low flying private aircraft can operate in the Heathrow zone on a regular basis (assuming it was private of course).
I assume it would have to be a twin to get special VFR in the zone for a start?
So, this is where my curiosity is leading me....if I were to purchase a twin engined aircraft could I then operate it from a field next to my house (well inside the zone) by simply requesting special VFR prior to departure everytime I wanted to fly to Chelski to see the Saturday match?! (which is what this helicopter might well be doing?). Surely not?
By the way, this is completely hypothetical. I don't own a large field, nor have the funds to purchase a flying machine! (Nor would I choose to attend Chelski games).
Now the confusion clears!
Special VFR in the zone is available to helicopters with any number of engines. When cleared Special VFR the 1000ft rule does not apply - but the 500 does.
The heli routes are the way to route through London, but twins can get direct routings in certain areas where singles can't.
To operate an unlicensed landing site within Class A airspace (all of London zone west of Vauxhall Bridge) you need to operate with CAA permission and obviously with ATC clearance.
"Off" the heli routes in Class A you are subject to the 3 miles separation rule - this could affect your pad if you are near LHR.
And if you want to land or take off in a congested area you will also need CAA permission.
Most of the above is available in pdf form on the CAA website or through AIC.
Special VFR in the zone is available to helicopters with any number of engines. When cleared Special VFR the 1000ft rule does not apply - but the 500 does.
The heli routes are the way to route through London, but twins can get direct routings in certain areas where singles can't.
To operate an unlicensed landing site within Class A airspace (all of London zone west of Vauxhall Bridge) you need to operate with CAA permission and obviously with ATC clearance.
"Off" the heli routes in Class A you are subject to the 3 miles separation rule - this could affect your pad if you are near LHR.
And if you want to land or take off in a congested area you will also need CAA permission.
Most of the above is available in pdf form on the CAA website or through AIC.
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Ok, thanks JimBall.
Now I'm sitting up...
When you say "To operate an unlicensed landing site within Class A airspace (all of London zone west of Vauxhall Bridge) you need to operate with CAA permission and obviously with ATC clearance."
So, permission to do so boils down to the discretion of the CAA. I take it then, the odd wealthy individual flying to the football game in his ("very unlikely to crash" machine) would be okay (subject to huge fee) but a farmer (I am not a farmer btw) wishing to operate a Jodel or similar (and not able to pay huge fee) to mind his flock would not?
This ultimately is what is driving my curiousity (perhaps I have thought about this too much!) . To what extent can the rules be waived for agreeable applicants/proposals.
Now I'm sitting up...
When you say "To operate an unlicensed landing site within Class A airspace (all of London zone west of Vauxhall Bridge) you need to operate with CAA permission and obviously with ATC clearance."
So, permission to do so boils down to the discretion of the CAA. I take it then, the odd wealthy individual flying to the football game in his ("very unlikely to crash" machine) would be okay (subject to huge fee) but a farmer (I am not a farmer btw) wishing to operate a Jodel or similar (and not able to pay huge fee) to mind his flock would not?
This ultimately is what is driving my curiousity (perhaps I have thought about this too much!) . To what extent can the rules be waived for agreeable applicants/proposals.