Auction Of Promises
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Auction Of Promises
If I offer to provide my services (PPL(H)) and a helicopter which I will hire as a prize in an auction of promises, am I going to fall foul of any rules or laws regarding provision of commercial flight? As I see it, I will be providing the aircraft and my services as pilot for no reward as the payment will be made by the succesful bidders to the charity which is benefitting from the auction. I anticipate the flight will involve nothing much more than some sightseeing and maybe a stop off at a decent restaurant for lunch. All obviously subject to weather, Notams etc.
I'd welcome the collective thoughts of UK pruners before I go and make the offer only to find for some reason I can't deliver it.
I'd welcome the collective thoughts of UK pruners before I go and make the offer only to find for some reason I can't deliver it.
From the ANO:
I know that it doesn't make much sense without all of the other articles so you can download the ANO here.
HTH
Public transport and aerial work - exceptions - charity flights
159 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flight shall be deemed to be a private flight if the only valuable consideration given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight other than:
(a) valuable consideration specified in article 157(3)(c); or (b) in the case of an aircraft owned in accordance with article 162(2), valuable consideration which falls within article 162(3); or is given or promised to a registered charity which is not the operator of the aircraft and the flight is made with the permission of the CAA and in accordance with any conditions therein specified.
(2) If valuable consideration specified in article 157(3)(c) is given or promised the flight shall for the purposes of Part 3 of this Order (other than articles 19(2) and 20(2)) be deemed to be for the purpose of public transport.
159 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flight shall be deemed to be a private flight if the only valuable consideration given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight other than:
(a) valuable consideration specified in article 157(3)(c); or (b) in the case of an aircraft owned in accordance with article 162(2), valuable consideration which falls within article 162(3); or is given or promised to a registered charity which is not the operator of the aircraft and the flight is made with the permission of the CAA and in accordance with any conditions therein specified.
(2) If valuable consideration specified in article 157(3)(c) is given or promised the flight shall for the purposes of Part 3 of this Order (other than articles 19(2) and 20(2)) be deemed to be for the purpose of public transport.
I know that it doesn't make much sense without all of the other articles so you can download the ANO here.
HTH
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The CAA have thoughtfully provided a slightly more digestible summary of the public transport rules here. The exemption for charity flights is covered.
You should also read AIC 25/2007
(White 136) for the rules concerning charity flights.
You should also read AIC 25/2007
(White 136) for the rules concerning charity flights.
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That's been very helpful indeed. Thanks to both Bravo and PS. Looks like what I want to do may not fit exactly within the terms of the blanket permission so I will need to approach the CAA directly but at least I now know how to go about it.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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Just my ha'pennies worth...
If you momentarily forget about the auction / charity side to this, you will be picking up a member of the public who is unknown to you and flying them to a restaurant. This is a classic scenario for a commercial flight.
Although the rules 'may' allow a PPL to do this - I think that this kind of flight should be conducted by a professional pilot.
I've no reason to doubt your abilities but what if......
Dtp
If you momentarily forget about the auction / charity side to this, you will be picking up a member of the public who is unknown to you and flying them to a restaurant. This is a classic scenario for a commercial flight.
Although the rules 'may' allow a PPL to do this - I think that this kind of flight should be conducted by a professional pilot.
I've no reason to doubt your abilities but what if......
Dtp
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Appreciate your thoughts, but if it is within the rules (I have yet to determine this) I'm not sure why you think it should be done by a commercial pilot. If I'm comfortable with and capable of flying this sort of profile with my friends and family, then what difference should it make if I am only recently acquainted with my passengers?
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Dump the pole
What is a professional pilot ?
do you mean a cpl not a ppl
or
do you mean a experienced pilot
or
a 250 hour CPL or a 3000 hour PPL
stands now back awaiting tirade
What is a professional pilot ?
do you mean a cpl not a ppl
or
do you mean a experienced pilot
or
a 250 hour CPL or a 3000 hour PPL
stands now back awaiting tirade
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Baldegret: I'm not slamming my fists into the computer when I type this but....I think that the 'customer' would probably expect a professional pilot (defintion to follow) to conduct this kind of flight. If Mr Joe Public turns up wanting a flight he might be a bit uneasy if the pilot had only a 'basic' qualification. Sometimes something stupid like wearing bars on your shoulders gives the customer a much more easy feeling. And when they inevitably ask "Oh, so how long have you been doing this ?" maybe they don't want to hear "I passed my PPL last month".
Obviously I have no idea about your circumstances and I applaud the fact that you are a helicopter pilot. Maybe I am just trying to protect the image of pilots that the general public sees. A PPL can be a great pilot - its just that he/she hasn't proved his higher standard.
Lartsa: no tirade, just my simple opinion which I should perhaps have kept to myself
. I think I mean someone who has proved that he/she is as good as thje job that he/she is intending to do; and has had the extra training to cope with as many of the 'what ifs' as possible. Perhaps this excludes a good proportion of PPLs ? Having said that, nothing beats experience.
Dtp
Obviously I have no idea about your circumstances and I applaud the fact that you are a helicopter pilot. Maybe I am just trying to protect the image of pilots that the general public sees. A PPL can be a great pilot - its just that he/she hasn't proved his higher standard.
Lartsa: no tirade, just my simple opinion which I should perhaps have kept to myself
. I think I mean someone who has proved that he/she is as good as thje job that he/she is intending to do; and has had the extra training to cope with as many of the 'what ifs' as possible. Perhaps this excludes a good proportion of PPLs ? Having said that, nothing beats experience.Dtp
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DTP
You're giving the CAA less credit than they're due on this one. I asked for permission back in my PPL days because I didn't have the 200 hours, and had a very pleasant conversation with an ops guy from the CAA where he outlined what would be acceptable, and it was quite cautious - no off airfield stuff. I'm not saying everyone would get that condition applied, but he clearly felt that was an appropriate restriction for my level of experience at the time.
When the permission came through, one of the conditions was that the passengers were to be made absolutely clear that the flight was not a public transport flight, that effectively they were afforded only the same protections as friends of the pilot would be, rather than that of an AOC.
Now of course it's going to be up to the pilot exactly how he broaches this subject, but I would have thought that anyone who had the decency to offer a charity flight, then the honesty and openness to ask the CAA and get permission, would probably have the good sense to follow their instructions and make this clear.
As long as everyone knows what they're getting into, I can't see there's a problem.
You're giving the CAA less credit than they're due on this one. I asked for permission back in my PPL days because I didn't have the 200 hours, and had a very pleasant conversation with an ops guy from the CAA where he outlined what would be acceptable, and it was quite cautious - no off airfield stuff. I'm not saying everyone would get that condition applied, but he clearly felt that was an appropriate restriction for my level of experience at the time.
When the permission came through, one of the conditions was that the passengers were to be made absolutely clear that the flight was not a public transport flight, that effectively they were afforded only the same protections as friends of the pilot would be, rather than that of an AOC.
Now of course it's going to be up to the pilot exactly how he broaches this subject, but I would have thought that anyone who had the decency to offer a charity flight, then the honesty and openness to ask the CAA and get permission, would probably have the good sense to follow their instructions and make this clear.
As long as everyone knows what they're getting into, I can't see there's a problem.
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Puntosaurus: I absolutely agree with your final statement. Being open and honest is the only way to go with this one.
Maybe I was being a bit cynical. There are a lot of shady characters - operators and pilots, who would obscure certain aspects of a flight like this. You are right to give Baldegret the benefit of my doubt.
I am still struggling to give the CAA any credit though!!
Dtp
Maybe I was being a bit cynical. There are a lot of shady characters - operators and pilots, who would obscure certain aspects of a flight like this. You are right to give Baldegret the benefit of my doubt.
I am still struggling to give the CAA any credit though!!
Dtp
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SIr
I work commercially in Canada, so I am not exactly familiar with the UK's aviation standards/law. We both operate generally speaking under "English Common Law". To me (not being a lawyer) that means that for the most part you're not (and this is very simply stated to say the least) going to get your ass handed to you nearly as bad if something were to go wrong than if you were conducting this in the USA.
BUT...
Having said that the operator I work for often conducts charity flights ( of which I do many of them) While we are not charging the customer we do conduct the preflight and signing of waivers just as if we were. That means that a thorough preflight is done and a piece of paper was signed stating exactly what was covered in that preflight including the basic "go here, don't go here, do this in case of emergency, elt, this is where we are going and for how long, how they are to embark/debark yada yada."
So I would have that paper ready just in case the ****e hits the fan, or one of your Pax happens to jump up and down outside with rotors turning, or the whole Fam Damily gets the smart idea to get a better camera angle right beside your tail rotor!!! Not to mention a signed letter of affirmation from what-ever agency you are answering to.
That all said, good on you for the thought. I very much enjoy giving said flights to those who never have.
BWB
I work commercially in Canada, so I am not exactly familiar with the UK's aviation standards/law. We both operate generally speaking under "English Common Law". To me (not being a lawyer) that means that for the most part you're not (and this is very simply stated to say the least) going to get your ass handed to you nearly as bad if something were to go wrong than if you were conducting this in the USA.
BUT...
Having said that the operator I work for often conducts charity flights ( of which I do many of them) While we are not charging the customer we do conduct the preflight and signing of waivers just as if we were. That means that a thorough preflight is done and a piece of paper was signed stating exactly what was covered in that preflight including the basic "go here, don't go here, do this in case of emergency, elt, this is where we are going and for how long, how they are to embark/debark yada yada."
So I would have that paper ready just in case the ****e hits the fan, or one of your Pax happens to jump up and down outside with rotors turning, or the whole Fam Damily gets the smart idea to get a better camera angle right beside your tail rotor!!! Not to mention a signed letter of affirmation from what-ever agency you are answering to.
That all said, good on you for the thought. I very much enjoy giving said flights to those who never have.
BWB
