IR/Exam Discrimination: Fighting the CAA?
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Military bridging package
I appreciate this is only relevant to the mil types but without moving this thread onto the mil forum does anyone know how all this sits for those that have acquired CPL(H) through the mil bridging package? As I understand it this equates to a frozen ATPL(H) - unfrozen once an IR is acheived. However is there still this 3 year window? and if so what happens after the 3 years if no IR is gained???
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Just a small point, the exams run out at the end of the month you did them, so I was 5th May 2005, they expire 31st May 2008.
Fortunetly I am booked in with an anticipated test date 22nd April, I have planned the bank robbery to pay for it in March!
Fortunetly I am booked in with an anticipated test date 22nd April, I have planned the bank robbery to pay for it in March!
Spanish Waltzer,
Have you looked in LASORS yet?
D6.6 INSTRUMENT RATING
REQUIREMENTS
It is not mandatory for a QSP (H) to complete an
Instrument Rating before being issued with a CPL(H).
An applicant for an IR (H) is required to complete the
requirements in accordance with Section E.
QSPs should note that JAR-FCL 2 requires both a CPL
(H) and IR (H) to be obtained within the 36 month
Acceptance Period of the ATPL (H) examinations to
maintain ATPL (H) theory credit for the subsequent
issue of an ATPL (H). However, it has been agreed that
a QSP (H) will not be subject to this requirement. Whilst
the 36 months Acceptance Period will still apply to the
issue of a CPL (H), an IR (H) can be obtained at any
time up to 3 years from the date of the last flight in a
military helicopter, and still retain ATPL (H) theory
credit.
Have you looked in LASORS yet?
D6.6 INSTRUMENT RATING
REQUIREMENTS
It is not mandatory for a QSP (H) to complete an
Instrument Rating before being issued with a CPL(H).
An applicant for an IR (H) is required to complete the
requirements in accordance with Section E.
QSPs should note that JAR-FCL 2 requires both a CPL
(H) and IR (H) to be obtained within the 36 month
Acceptance Period of the ATPL (H) examinations to
maintain ATPL (H) theory credit for the subsequent
issue of an ATPL (H). However, it has been agreed that
a QSP (H) will not be subject to this requirement. Whilst
the 36 months Acceptance Period will still apply to the
issue of a CPL (H), an IR (H) can be obtained at any
time up to 3 years from the date of the last flight in a
military helicopter, and still retain ATPL (H) theory
credit.
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...from the date of the last flight in a military helicopter...So ex-mil pilots just have to have a quick wizz around the circuit in a military heli to stop their exam credits expiring. And civvy folk have to spend £2,000+ sitting the exams again. Discrimination? Surely not.
Torquetalk,
Yes it may be possible to get SE IMC training etc but in UK land, you aint flying in IMC commercially, legally, unless you're in a twin. I don't particularly care about other countries nor do I profess to know anything about their regulations.
I just know the hoops I had to jump through and yes, they are a complete pain in the ar&e.
Yes Whilrygig, you can fly IFR VMC. You're just flying to a set of rules.
You can practice procedural flying in an R22 if you want but only if VMC and you would need a safety pilot looking out for you if you're looking at the dials to fly those procedures. You can hardly fly procedures looking outside.
I agree the rules are poorly set and could be more user friendly but it would seem to be more of a money spinner exercise than anything else to gain a useful IR.
Saying that, the offshore companies have recently paid for single engine heli IR conversions to multi, ths saving a few pounds on training costs.
Yes it may be possible to get SE IMC training etc but in UK land, you aint flying in IMC commercially, legally, unless you're in a twin. I don't particularly care about other countries nor do I profess to know anything about their regulations.
I just know the hoops I had to jump through and yes, they are a complete pain in the ar&e.
Yes Whilrygig, you can fly IFR VMC. You're just flying to a set of rules.
You can practice procedural flying in an R22 if you want but only if VMC and you would need a safety pilot looking out for you if you're looking at the dials to fly those procedures. You can hardly fly procedures looking outside.
I agree the rules are poorly set and could be more user friendly but it would seem to be more of a money spinner exercise than anything else to gain a useful IR.
Saying that, the offshore companies have recently paid for single engine heli IR conversions to multi, ths saving a few pounds on training costs.
Just look at the CAA and how far behind the drag curve they are on all other matters. Not just single engine rotory. I sat my CPL exams a number of years ago and had to learn EVEY-THING there is to know about Omega, Loran C and Decca. GPS was a single page of A4. Went into my first job and all the hyperbolics had been turned off or were about to. All the a/c in the fleet had GPS. The CAA (Campaign Against Aviation) is as I see it, an old boys net work for 1950's era RAF types. Please correct me if I am wrong, no doubt you all will !!
Nope, you're not far off the mark. Not necessarily old boy types but the system seems to have been handed down with the old 'it's always been like that' attitude i feel.
I bet the 'new blood' that works there wish they could change things, but I imagine their hands are tied by bureaucratic bull***t.
I bet the 'new blood' that works there wish they could change things, but I imagine their hands are tied by bureaucratic bull***t.
Helimutt
The point I was making is that it is possible to get real IMC training in a single. The SE IR(H) & overseas (via JAR mutual recognition) routes gives options to people trying to make decisions about the IR(H).
TT
The point I was making is that it is possible to get real IMC training in a single. The SE IR(H) & overseas (via JAR mutual recognition) routes gives options to people trying to make decisions about the IR(H).
TT
I know there are people out there that go IMC in a single.
Yes Sweden and even the UK have a jetranger for IR training. The cost is quite high and for the difference you'd pay, you might as well spend that little bit more to do it in a twin. An IR(H) on a single in the UK is absolutely no use whatsoever unless you are only getting it as a stepping stone to moving onto multi's.
Granted, IMC training does have it's uses for some but for the PPL holder, why even teach it? Why not impress upon them even more the stupidity of going IMC without proper training and equipment?
Why would you need to make a decision about the IR(H)? You're either going into a job where you will need it or you're not. Seems pretty clear cut to me.
The only real question is 'is the company going to pay for your IR?' If so, do it on a multi because it won't cost you a penny!!
Yes Sweden and even the UK have a jetranger for IR training. The cost is quite high and for the difference you'd pay, you might as well spend that little bit more to do it in a twin. An IR(H) on a single in the UK is absolutely no use whatsoever unless you are only getting it as a stepping stone to moving onto multi's.
Granted, IMC training does have it's uses for some but for the PPL holder, why even teach it? Why not impress upon them even more the stupidity of going IMC without proper training and equipment?
Why would you need to make a decision about the IR(H)? You're either going into a job where you will need it or you're not. Seems pretty clear cut to me.
The only real question is 'is the company going to pay for your IR?' If so, do it on a multi because it won't cost you a penny!!
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The IR is all about procedural instrument flying and it's considerably cheaper to do it in a single. That's why Bristow use a single in their instrument school in Norwich. After that, you have your IR and can just do an upgrade flight in a twin later. Incidentally, the Bristow instrument school at Norwich will become part of the Bristow Academy (formerly HAI) and should also have twin AS355s available for twin engine instrument flying later this year.
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TorqueTalk:
You are correct that you can easily get an SEIR(H) in Sweden and I'm sure the Norwegian authority is more than happy to put it on a Norwegian issued JAR licence, cos of mutual recognition and all that.
The point I was trying to make is that the UK CAA don't really give a crap about JAR (unless it suits them). Even though ratings and licences are mutually recognised (and by definition REQUIRED to be accepted by other authorities), you will never get a SEIR(H) rating put on to your UK issued JAR licence, period.
So what happens when you pay that (only slightly-smaller) fortune for your Bristows SEIR on the JetRanger? You get a piece of paper. Basically your test pass certificate. You are then supposed to submit that when you apply for your ME rating and MEIR(H), only then will the UK CAA put anything remotely IR-related on a Helicopter licence.
If you're self-funding the IR, like Helimutt said, pay the extra and do it all in a twin. After paying all that cash for the IR I'd certainly want something more than a thin piece of A5 tissue paper to show for it!
You are correct that you can easily get an SEIR(H) in Sweden and I'm sure the Norwegian authority is more than happy to put it on a Norwegian issued JAR licence, cos of mutual recognition and all that.
The point I was trying to make is that the UK CAA don't really give a crap about JAR (unless it suits them). Even though ratings and licences are mutually recognised (and by definition REQUIRED to be accepted by other authorities), you will never get a SEIR(H) rating put on to your UK issued JAR licence, period.
So what happens when you pay that (only slightly-smaller) fortune for your Bristows SEIR on the JetRanger? You get a piece of paper. Basically your test pass certificate. You are then supposed to submit that when you apply for your ME rating and MEIR(H), only then will the UK CAA put anything remotely IR-related on a Helicopter licence.
If you're self-funding the IR, like Helimutt said, pay the extra and do it all in a twin. After paying all that cash for the IR I'd certainly want something more than a thin piece of A5 tissue paper to show for it!
SoggyB's, I kind of agree the IR is about procedural flying but not entirely. what about the bit between both procedures? departure/arrival?
I thought the IR was also about learning to fly an aircraft using the instruments for reference when there are no/few outside references.
Will Bristows do the complete IR training on the 355 or will they use an FNPT2 for 40 hours (or an R22?) and then 10 hours aircraft, like so many other training providers?
I thought the IR was also about learning to fly an aircraft using the instruments for reference when there are no/few outside references.
Will Bristows do the complete IR training on the 355 or will they use an FNPT2 for 40 hours (or an R22?) and then 10 hours aircraft, like so many other training providers?
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Helimutt,
The IR consists of a departure, en-route and an arrival, to include a hold.
Basic instrument flying (which you need to have done before you embark on your IR training) was always part of the ATPL(H) syllabus when I was doing ab-initio instructing on the Bristow Training School and we used to give 10 hours of instruction on that using the Bell 47, then later the R22.
I don't know what courses they will be offering on the AS355, but you should be able to find out from them later in the year. They have aground instrument procedure at the instrument school. I suggest you contact them at Norwich if you want to find out more, +44-1603-402356
The IR consists of a departure, en-route and an arrival, to include a hold.
Basic instrument flying (which you need to have done before you embark on your IR training) was always part of the ATPL(H) syllabus when I was doing ab-initio instructing on the Bristow Training School and we used to give 10 hours of instruction on that using the Bell 47, then later the R22.
I don't know what courses they will be offering on the AS355, but you should be able to find out from them later in the year. They have aground instrument procedure at the instrument school. I suggest you contact them at Norwich if you want to find out more, +44-1603-402356
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Smokin
I agree with much of what you say, but what you are saying about the CAA not adding a SE IR(H) to a licence is factually incorrect.
TT
I agree with much of what you say, but what you are saying about the CAA not adding a SE IR(H) to a licence is factually incorrect.
TT
I couldn't believe it when they said that. Even when pointing out that as signatories to JAA, they have already agreed to mutually recognise an SEIR(H) from another country (when asked if I went abroad to do the course). The guy told me it doesn't matter. They will still not put it on my licence. A big, fat, no..
I would love to hear something 'official' from the CAA saying that this is not true. But if you want the 'reward' of actually having the IR(H) on your licence, do a Multi engined one.
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I've looked into all aspects and angles to getting my IR cheaper but as you've pointed out there is the bureacracy to deal with! When everything is considered you may as well 'bite the bullet' and pay the dosh beacuse you may not be making that much of a saving. 
Last summer I'd heard that there were moves to extend the '3 year rule' from completing exams to completing IR... but this hasn't happened. Yet another money making scam!
With bullit firmly in teeth I'm off to do my IR(H) next month. Eeeek
Last summer I'd heard that there were moves to extend the '3 year rule' from completing exams to completing IR... but this hasn't happened. Yet another money making scam!
With bullit firmly in teeth I'm off to do my IR(H) next month. Eeeek