Passed your LDP , and you have a engine failure..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1 deg south, avoiding Malaria P Falciparium
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Passed your LDP , and you have a engine failure..
Ok here is one for you experienced twin guys. A friend and I were talking on Skype last night about this situaiton. A mutal friend was given this on a sim ride.
You are on final, and have passed your LDP. The number one is failing, and has indications of possible fire.
What do you do?
Do you roll the engine back and have the co-joe reach up, pull the fire bottle T handle , and risk pulling the wrong lever, or do you just fly the thing to the ground and get everyone out and not worry about the a/c.
My thoughts would be , since you have already passed your LDP, you have decided you are landing, just land the machine. Why try to complicate the situation.
I ma told this wasnt exaclty what the sim instructor was looking for.
What would you do.
ANy one have experience in a similar situation?
RB
You are on final, and have passed your LDP. The number one is failing, and has indications of possible fire.
What do you do?
Do you roll the engine back and have the co-joe reach up, pull the fire bottle T handle , and risk pulling the wrong lever, or do you just fly the thing to the ground and get everyone out and not worry about the a/c.
My thoughts would be , since you have already passed your LDP, you have decided you are landing, just land the machine. Why try to complicate the situation.
I ma told this wasnt exaclty what the sim instructor was looking for.
What would you do.
ANy one have experience in a similar situation?
RB
Last edited by rotorboy; 2nd Feb 2008 at 14:30.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Over here
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is another one of those "It depends" situations. Without knowing much more, it's hard to say for sure. If I'm very close to the ground, I may just land it and then start the fire checklist, but there may be other factors involved. 10 feet above the deck isn't the time to be reaching for engine levers, but you have to take everything into account, and make a very quick decision. That's why they pay the PIC the big money. 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RB,
Twins tend to have substantial fire walls surronding the engines. Fire warnings can be spurious.
Single pilot I'd land, get the aircraft evacuated and then deal with the possible fire. Radio call to ATC whilst flying, but you're so close I wouldn't make things more complicated than they'd need to be.
Twin crew. Reckon I'd do the same.
Had a similar scenario on my S76 initial test in a sim, albeit fire was just before LDP - I landed, then worried about the fire then to.
Twins tend to have substantial fire walls surronding the engines. Fire warnings can be spurious.
Single pilot I'd land, get the aircraft evacuated and then deal with the possible fire. Radio call to ATC whilst flying, but you're so close I wouldn't make things more complicated than they'd need to be.
Twin crew. Reckon I'd do the same.
Had a similar scenario on my S76 initial test in a sim, albeit fire was just before LDP - I landed, then worried about the fire then to.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fly the helicopter to the ground, touch nothing!
If you are inside LDP, you are 10 seconds or less from touchdown. Fiddling with engine levers, fire bottles and stuff will get your entire aircraft into deeper danger, through the diverted attention and potential to mishandle the task. Do that stuff on the ground after landing.
Flingingwings is absolutely right, a Part 29 twin can stand a raging engine fire for 15 minutes without any additional damage (not that I would wait 15 minutes, folks!) since its firewalls are designed to contain the fire, and they are isolated from the structure to allow safe operation with the fire.
If you are inside LDP, you are 10 seconds or less from touchdown. Fiddling with engine levers, fire bottles and stuff will get your entire aircraft into deeper danger, through the diverted attention and potential to mishandle the task. Do that stuff on the ground after landing.
Flingingwings is absolutely right, a Part 29 twin can stand a raging engine fire for 15 minutes without any additional damage (not that I would wait 15 minutes, folks!) since its firewalls are designed to contain the fire, and they are isolated from the structure to allow safe operation with the fire.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Center of the Universe
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It has been drummed into me forever that the acft is dispensible, the pax and crew are not. If only 10 sec from the ground, land, evacuate, then worry about the acft.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: home and abroad
Posts: 582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I ma told this wasnt exaclty what the sim instructor was looking for.
WHO told you that and WHY?
Like some brighter minds before me have said, the a/c will survive the 10 seconds of possible engine fire, but you may not survive the subsequent accident when you try to identify the exact nature of the problem and shut down an engine at a time when you should focus all your attention on performing a safe landing.
Perhaps do the Mayday call on ATC frequency, but nothing else.
Personally I'd land the beast, shut down both (I fly twins) engines and evacuate. A/C is insured, and on the ground it becomes Somebody Else's Problem after we get out..
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: KPHL
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm surprised this generates discussion. Aren't the actions to be taken upon engine failure after LDP written down?
This is the simple case. Just prior to LDP is a much more interesting discussion. Very much depends on the nature of the emergency, although in most cases its easy to decide whether you want to keep flying ot not. If you decide to land then whether or not you secure the engine is the tough call.
Matthew.
This is the simple case. Just prior to LDP is a much more interesting discussion. Very much depends on the nature of the emergency, although in most cases its easy to decide whether you want to keep flying ot not. If you decide to land then whether or not you secure the engine is the tough call.
Matthew.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 72
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On two pilot operations, at LDP the handling pilot makes a statement to the non-handling pilot which confirms that he is either going to land or go around. That way both pilots know exactly what is intended in terms of where the helicopter is going, regardless of engine failure or fire etc.
Maybe the Sim instructor was looking to see whether your friend might thing about what could happen if his helicopter bursts into flames on the helideck, thus exposing even more people to the danger.. As the helicopter is already past LDP I wouldn't even go there - Land as planned.
After LDP, as Nick and others have pointed out, you only have a matter of a few seconds to react. Telling the NHP to pull back No1 throttle requires that the HP checks that the correct lever has been selected before it is pulled back, which means that he would have to take his eyes off the approach at a critical moment and risk screwing up the approach.
If the NHP pulls back the wrong engine - OOps, splat.
Leave the engines where they are and concentrate on landing as soon as possible - no loitering in the hover for a gentle touch down!
As soon as you touch down and start lowering the lever you can then move your attention to ensuring the correct engine is shut down ASAP and the Fire Bottle is fired.
One thing to consider before shutting down both engines is - what is the windspeed and is it turbulent - ie is it safe to stop rotors on the deck at this stage?
The most important thing in any case is to evacuate the pax as soon as you can. Then you can take whatever action you next decide on without the problem of possibly hurting passengers in the process.
Would be interested to hear what the Sim Instructor really expected to hear on this one.
Maybe the Sim instructor was looking to see whether your friend might thing about what could happen if his helicopter bursts into flames on the helideck, thus exposing even more people to the danger.. As the helicopter is already past LDP I wouldn't even go there - Land as planned.
After LDP, as Nick and others have pointed out, you only have a matter of a few seconds to react. Telling the NHP to pull back No1 throttle requires that the HP checks that the correct lever has been selected before it is pulled back, which means that he would have to take his eyes off the approach at a critical moment and risk screwing up the approach.
If the NHP pulls back the wrong engine - OOps, splat.
Leave the engines where they are and concentrate on landing as soon as possible - no loitering in the hover for a gentle touch down!
As soon as you touch down and start lowering the lever you can then move your attention to ensuring the correct engine is shut down ASAP and the Fire Bottle is fired.
One thing to consider before shutting down both engines is - what is the windspeed and is it turbulent - ie is it safe to stop rotors on the deck at this stage?
The most important thing in any case is to evacuate the pax as soon as you can. Then you can take whatever action you next decide on without the problem of possibly hurting passengers in the process.
Would be interested to hear what the Sim Instructor really expected to hear on this one.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Over here
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's also worth remembering that a sim instructor is just that. He's there to teach you the sim, and I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what (s)he thinks of my flying or decision-making. That's for the check pilot to check.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: northeast usa
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fire at LDP
Like most of these situations, it is hard to say, but fly first, guess later. So I would continue to land, while looking for more info. I don't think that a fire warning alone warrants pulling a fire handle. I would want secondary indications, like smoke, stink, engine getting hot. In flight, a fire warning would warrant some S turns to look for trailing smoke. Pulling handles close to the ground is usually a bad thing. 
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 433 Likes
on
228 Posts
Nick can possibly recall the advice latterly given in the Blackhawk RFM about engine malfunctions and mis-identifying of affected engines. It says that ECLs should not be fully retarded in less than five seconds.... in that time, from LDP you would be almost on the ground.
I certainly wouldn't want ECLs moved until on the ground, the only possible exception is an engine runaway up where the Nr goes outside the upper limits; unlikely to happen (but it has).
An engine run-down / failure? Nah! After LDP you have committed to land anyway, so why change anything and get distracted from a safe landing?
I certainly wouldn't want ECLs moved until on the ground, the only possible exception is an engine runaway up where the Nr goes outside the upper limits; unlikely to happen (but it has).
An engine run-down / failure? Nah! After LDP you have committed to land anyway, so why change anything and get distracted from a safe landing?
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without being a smart a**e, I hope, the answer is simple. If you have passed LDP & the engine fails, by definition you must land or ditch. This of course assumes you have correctly identified your LDP as I've flown with plenty of pilots who have called LDP far too early & on check flights I've pulled an engine & flown away to demonstrate the point.
Therefore, as Nick & others have said, you complete the landing/ditching & then sort out the fire, etc. If that close to a rig, you are stuck with making a single engine landing, even if the collective is under your arm pit. This will depend on the deck shape & if you have time to avoid it. So far I've had to land on a deck twice without problems but with some luck as in both cases it was windy & only a light load on board. But if all pre briefed, it just happens.
Therefore, as Nick & others have said, you complete the landing/ditching & then sort out the fire, etc. If that close to a rig, you are stuck with making a single engine landing, even if the collective is under your arm pit. This will depend on the deck shape & if you have time to avoid it. So far I've had to land on a deck twice without problems but with some luck as in both cases it was windy & only a light load on board. But if all pre briefed, it just happens.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We were not allowed to land on the platform with any form of fire or indication thereof..... An actual fire problem after LDP meant a ditching was the only option, either that or feel the wrath of 26 Nationals and a pissed off pommy rig boss with the full backing of Textron........
We did HUET twice a year
(they seemed quite content to let 2 x 650 degree engine exhausts land as normal though.... don't figure
)
We did HUET twice a year
(they seemed quite content to let 2 x 650 degree engine exhausts land as normal though.... don't figure
)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Feeling very wary of sticking my head above the parapet here, as a fairly new sim instructor, but I go 100% with what everyone else on this thread seems to be saying. The LDP is the last point at which you can guarantee a baulked landing. Therefore, any engine failure after this point requires you to land.
The fire is something which can wait the few seconds till you are safely down. One exercise that we sometimes use in the sim is to give an engine fire fairly close to an airfield. The engine is safely shut down, but on finals to land, the other engine fire warning illuminates. You may be surprised at how many people rush to shut down the second engine and crash in a heap, instead of continuing to fly the approach to land with the working engine that may or may not be on fire!
The most important lesson I try to get across in emergency handling is - if you are not falling out of the sky, take your time in diagnosis and remedial actions! Time and again, we see perfectly flyable (simulated) aircraft crashing, because the pilot is in a rush to do something, and he/she moves switches and levers that should not have moved.
The fire is something which can wait the few seconds till you are safely down. One exercise that we sometimes use in the sim is to give an engine fire fairly close to an airfield. The engine is safely shut down, but on finals to land, the other engine fire warning illuminates. You may be surprised at how many people rush to shut down the second engine and crash in a heap, instead of continuing to fly the approach to land with the working engine that may or may not be on fire!
The most important lesson I try to get across in emergency handling is - if you are not falling out of the sky, take your time in diagnosis and remedial actions! Time and again, we see perfectly flyable (simulated) aircraft crashing, because the pilot is in a rush to do something, and he/she moves switches and levers that should not have moved.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 433 Likes
on
228 Posts
The most important lesson I try to get across in emergency handling is - if you are not falling out of the sky, take your time in diagnosis and remedial actions! Time and again, we see perfectly flyable (simulated) aircraft crashing, because the pilot is in a rush to do something, and he/she moves switches and levers that should not have moved.
He looked up, totally shocked and asked me what I had done to make it crash! He only believed me when I used the "playback" facility and allowed him to sit and watch himself crash.
Another pilot, on his third tour, no less, misidentified the faulty engine on a number of occasions. I have also seen pilots, given a single engine failure, fool themselves into believing they had a double engine failure because they very rapidly "dumped" the lever and put the aircraft into autorotation. I have also seen pilots say "number 1" when they meant to say "number 2" etc.
After LDP, if you can safely put the aircraft on the ground, you have just about solved the problem.....
As an RAF QHI once said to me, very early on in my flying career: The "land on and leg it" policy seldom fails.
I tend to agree with him, at least in peace time.
We were not allowed to land on the platform with any form of fire or indication thereof..... An actual fire problem after LDP meant a ditching was the only option
Is that normal with others apart from Textron?
Who, exactly, forbids a landing on the Helideck?
Given the fatality figures per ditching I would be inclined to land on the deck and argue the point later.
Handle the problem on the deck vs attempt a go around after LDP with a potential ditching and evacuation of a flaming helicopter in the water. No big choice there.
Fire burns and water is cold, wet and you can not breathe it.
If the fire can not be contained with the 2 fire bottles in the aircraft and all that foam they have on the helideck they can sweep the whole mess off the rig with the crane - but myself and the crew and pax would be safe aboard the rig - I would even help push the flaming beast overboard.
The priority is to save life.
I see the rig boss's desire to protect his platfom from all danger but there is a limit when to do it he puts the pax and crew in the helicopter at grave risk.
Just my 2 cents.
Given the fatality figures per ditching I would be inclined to land on the deck and argue the point later.
Handle the problem on the deck vs attempt a go around after LDP with a potential ditching and evacuation of a flaming helicopter in the water. No big choice there.
Fire burns and water is cold, wet and you can not breathe it.
If the fire can not be contained with the 2 fire bottles in the aircraft and all that foam they have on the helideck they can sweep the whole mess off the rig with the crane - but myself and the crew and pax would be safe aboard the rig - I would even help push the flaming beast overboard.
The priority is to save life.
I see the rig boss's desire to protect his platfom from all danger but there is a limit when to do it he puts the pax and crew in the helicopter at grave risk.
Just my 2 cents.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So after you land on the deck (illegally?) and put out the fire, what are they going to do, throw you and your pax in the water? That is the only thing that would make it better to avoid the deck!
I don't care who they are and what they say about how I have no access to their safe landing area when I have an emergency - as PIC, my pax deserve that deck and if there is no Anti-Aircraft site on the rig, that is where they are going!
I don't care who they are and what they say about how I have no access to their safe landing area when I have an emergency - as PIC, my pax deserve that deck and if there is no Anti-Aircraft site on the rig, that is where they are going!