UK/Europe making radio calls to ATC
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UK/Europe making radio calls to ATC
Question for the UK/Europe pilots from across the pond....
In the U.S., we make our calls to ATC using the aircraft numbers(ie: 378EC(3-7-8-Echo-Charlie) initially, and use the last 3 digits to answer or reply after that to ATC. With the aircraft #'s as: G-JETU, are you using: Juliette-Echo-Tango-Uniform, when making ATC calls?
Thanks in advance!
Rookie from the across the pond!
Rotor67(Rob)
In the U.S., we make our calls to ATC using the aircraft numbers(ie: 378EC(3-7-8-Echo-Charlie) initially, and use the last 3 digits to answer or reply after that to ATC. With the aircraft #'s as: G-JETU, are you using: Juliette-Echo-Tango-Uniform, when making ATC calls?
Thanks in advance!
Rookie from the across the pond!
Rotor67(Rob)
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First call is always full callsign, ie, for G-ABCD, Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, (with type given afterwards), and remains full callsign thereafter unless ATC give the lead and shorten it on their reply, which in this case would be Golf Charlie Delta. Note the Golf is always given.
"Jetranger 44 Alfa Bravo" is the US way,
"Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, a Jetranger..." is the UK way
and
"Helicopter Golf Alfa Bravo etc" is the mark of a UK PPL coming the big I Am...
"Jetranger 44 Alfa Bravo" is the US way,
"Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, a Jetranger..." is the UK way
and
"Helicopter Golf Alfa Bravo etc" is the mark of a UK PPL coming the big I Am...
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BISPORUS
b****ks
That was the way i was taught in the uk to prefix with helicopter all callsigns
i was also taught to use the prefix copter 44 alfa bravo when training in the states
b****ks
"Helicopter Golf Alfa Bravo etc" is the mark of a UK PPL coming the big I Am...
That was the way i was taught in the uk to prefix with helicopter all callsigns
i was also taught to use the prefix copter 44 alfa bravo when training in the states
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That was the way i was taught in the uk to prefix with helicopter all callsigns
rotor67, correct RTF phraseology for the UK, if you're really interested, can be found in CAP413
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??
Then you were taught wrong!
Last edited by albyskoons; 3rd Jan 2008 at 16:11. Reason: missed chapter reference :-)
md600 -have a little courtesy. I don't doubt that you were taught that way but I also have been taught some strange things from time to time...
rotor67 the "bible" is a UK CAA publication which you can find at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Chapter 2 page 8, in giving some examples, says
"* Piper GBSZT Piper ZT
* The name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of aircraft model, or name the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to callsign."
In other words you can do it that way if you wish. I have about 9000 hours rotary and I have hardly ever used it - normally as Ag Bis says, its the full callsign followed by the type (normally the ICAO type as you would put in a flight plan - eg my EC225 becomes EC25 in ICAO-speak) on first contact.
In reality I doubt ATC will be particularly concerned either way, though "helicopter" doesn't give them much useful information - the type of helicopter (which gives them an idea of cruising speed) would be more useful I suspect.
HC
rotor67 the "bible" is a UK CAA publication which you can find at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Chapter 2 page 8, in giving some examples, says
"* Piper GBSZT Piper ZT
* The name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of aircraft model, or name the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to callsign."
In other words you can do it that way if you wish. I have about 9000 hours rotary and I have hardly ever used it - normally as Ag Bis says, its the full callsign followed by the type (normally the ICAO type as you would put in a flight plan - eg my EC225 becomes EC25 in ICAO-speak) on first contact.
In reality I doubt ATC will be particularly concerned either way, though "helicopter" doesn't give them much useful information - the type of helicopter (which gives them an idea of cruising speed) would be more useful I suspect.
HC
calling helicopter and call sign is a help to ground station and other aircraft,
helicopters do not fly the same pattern and can appear where plank drivers least expect. so giving them a little more help does not hurt.
helicopters do not fly the same pattern and can appear where plank drivers least expect. so giving them a little more help does not hurt.
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I was taught to prefix the word "Helicopter" to my Aircraft registration and i traditionally do this when I'm flying rotary. I have never been pulled up over it when talking to ATC and regardless of whether or not it is standard or acceptable phraseology (by CAP standards) I personally think it immediately allows ATC to identify the possible capabilities of the aircraft type (not the pilot!) quickly.
Once I've initiated contact I usually abbreviate to Helicopter XX afterwards.
So there!
Once I've initiated contact I usually abbreviate to Helicopter XX afterwards.
So there!
500e - yes, however "helicopter" could be a Bell 47 doing 65kts or me in my 225 doing 150kts. That's why its better to give the type.
On reflection I think I say "EC25 helicopter" after the callsign which caters for those that don't know what an EC25 is as well as those that do.
Prefixing with "helicopter" is a bit of a PPL thing.......(waits for howls of protest!)
HC
On reflection I think I say "EC25 helicopter" after the callsign which caters for those that don't know what an EC25 is as well as those that do.
Prefixing with "helicopter" is a bit of a PPL thing.......(waits for howls of protest!)
HC
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Well I was taught to use Helicopter as a prefix; it helps ATC understand that I may not need to use a runway (approach low level to XYZ boundary) and I will be conforming to rotary circuit direction. Its a shortish word which provides ATC / AFIS with useful information so I can't see the harm in it.
I was told of a PPL doing training into PMI who failed to tell ATC he was a helicopter and was routed to follow taxi ways back to parking area ( a la fixed wing) until he told them and requested otherwise - when they let him cross directly to where he needed to be. I bet he wishes he had used it in his RT.
As for the PPL thing, as a PPL I obviously find it slightly demeaning that we get comments like the above - luckily though, I will survive. However, having heard many commercial pilots (some with full ATPL(H)'s) on the RT the only time I can recall it not being used is when the callsign (an ICAO call sign, not regn) was known to the ATC as being rotary. (HeliMed 53A, Sloane 001 etc).
Which leads me nicely back onto the original topic... while we do all use the full registration in the UK / Europe, abbreviated when ATC do so; those who have one are entitled to use a call sign issued by the CAA (but registered with ICAO); although this is normally commercial operators on Air Operators Certificates in the same way that fixed wing airlines do.
HC.
I was told of a PPL doing training into PMI who failed to tell ATC he was a helicopter and was routed to follow taxi ways back to parking area ( a la fixed wing) until he told them and requested otherwise - when they let him cross directly to where he needed to be. I bet he wishes he had used it in his RT.
As for the PPL thing, as a PPL I obviously find it slightly demeaning that we get comments like the above - luckily though, I will survive. However, having heard many commercial pilots (some with full ATPL(H)'s) on the RT the only time I can recall it not being used is when the callsign (an ICAO call sign, not regn) was known to the ATC as being rotary. (HeliMed 53A, Sloane 001 etc).
Which leads me nicely back onto the original topic... while we do all use the full registration in the UK / Europe, abbreviated when ATC do so; those who have one are entitled to use a call sign issued by the CAA (but registered with ICAO); although this is normally commercial operators on Air Operators Certificates in the same way that fixed wing airlines do.
HC.
Helicraig - I intended to be more tongue-in-cheek than demeaning. But you have to accept that on average professional pilots do tend to sound more professional on the RT than PPLs, if only because on average they will have had far more exposure to the environment (ie more hours).
Don't worry, PPLs are better at some things, for example PPLs tend to keep a good lookout whereas professional pilots are either reading the paper of in deep discussion with their colleague about just how dreadful their lot in life is, how bad their pay is etc
PPLs are taught to avoid the avoid curve, whereas (some) professional pilots spend their flying lives in it
I could go on but...
HC
Don't worry, PPLs are better at some things, for example PPLs tend to keep a good lookout whereas professional pilots are either reading the paper of in deep discussion with their colleague about just how dreadful their lot in life is, how bad their pay is etc
PPLs are taught to avoid the avoid curve, whereas (some) professional pilots spend their flying lives in it
I could go on but...
HC
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For once we are clever...
In my country, Sweden, the problem is partially solved by the fact that the registrations of rotorcraft lie in a range of letters. SE-Hxx or SE-Jxx are helicopters. Still, most pilots start with full call sign, the abbreviate (on initiative from ATC) to Sxx, which effectively removes the helicopter tell-tale. So, most pilots say "Helicopter xx" as abbreviation. I beleive that it is good to distinguish between planks and rotorcraft. They do behave differently in the air, not just because of speed differences.
Just my 92 cents worth...
Just my 92 cents worth...
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And for what it's worth............
I elected many years ago to begin my first call to any ATSU with the word "Helicopter....." as a method of flagging to all on frequency that the aircraft is rotary. Once acknowledged, the subsequent message includes full type information as required.
Nobody told me to do it, I didn't see it written down anywhere, I just thought it made sense at the time and I still do.
Happy New Year!!
By the way, Helicomparator, how do you keep your teeth from falling out at that speed in your 225? :-)
I elected many years ago to begin my first call to any ATSU with the word "Helicopter....." as a method of flagging to all on frequency that the aircraft is rotary. Once acknowledged, the subsequent message includes full type information as required.
Nobody told me to do it, I didn't see it written down anywhere, I just thought it made sense at the time and I still do.
Happy New Year!!
By the way, Helicomparator, how do you keep your teeth from falling out at that speed in your 225? :-)
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Chapter 4 Section 3 of CAP 413: Aerodrome Phraseology for Helicopters
As well as being incorporated into CAP 413, you can also see it as a stand-alone in ATSIN No 48
Hope that helps.
3.2 Helicopter Callsigns
3.2.1 Aircraft callsigns to be used are described in Chapter 2 paragraph 1.8. Provision is made for the name of the aircraft manufacturer, or the aircraft model, to be used before the aircraft registration (in full or abbreviated form). If considered appropriate, the pilot or ATSU may replace manufacturer’s name or aircraft model with the term ‘Helicopter’ where this may benefit the ATSU or other aircraft (see phraseology examples paragraphs 3.6.4 and 3.6.5).
Table 2
Full callsign___________________Abbreviation
Helicopter G-ABCD______________ Helicopter CD
3.2.1 Aircraft callsigns to be used are described in Chapter 2 paragraph 1.8. Provision is made for the name of the aircraft manufacturer, or the aircraft model, to be used before the aircraft registration (in full or abbreviated form). If considered appropriate, the pilot or ATSU may replace manufacturer’s name or aircraft model with the term ‘Helicopter’ where this may benefit the ATSU or other aircraft (see phraseology examples paragraphs 3.6.4 and 3.6.5).
Table 2
Full callsign___________________Abbreviation
Helicopter G-ABCD______________ Helicopter CD
Hope that helps.
heliski - maybe I don't hence - but in fact the 225 is smoothest at max continuous power, which is around 145 - 155 TAS (165 on descent on a good day) depending on mass.
HC
- but in fact the 225 is smoothest at max continuous power, which is around 145 - 155 TAS (165 on descent on a good day) depending on mass.HC
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Just one little thing: "we" in the US of course don't shorten our callsigns in the second call to the last 3 letters just like that. However, if ATC shortens it we can too.
Not that I am always that perfect
; never got shot down because I shortened mine right away either. ("Helicopter N123AB be aware there is a Gulfstream N4AB also on the frequency" - or something like that)
Not that I am always that perfect
; never got shot down because I shortened mine right away either. ("Helicopter N123AB be aware there is a Gulfstream N4AB also on the frequency" - or something like that)
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When I was doing my PPL I found the radio work one of the most difficult areas. I would carefully study the book and listen to the tapes until I was pretty sure I knew what I should say and what the ATC would say and so on but as soon as they knew you were a helicopter they would treat you quite differently!
perfrej, can you please be very careful what you say as HeliComparator is present.
The use of 92 can have totally unpredictable results. Any other number is preferrable, but perhaps 225 cents would have been perfect. Otherwise we could have yet another thread on helicopter certification. I don't know if I can take any more....... 
HC, see you soon
Just my 92 cents worth...
HC, see you soon
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HC (the other one),
Didn't have your post in mind when I made the "don't demean PPLs" comment - was thinking of the "big I am" comment earlier; it sort of got my goat on what was already a bad day (for other reasons).
Your other comments are 100% spot on though - we all do different things better as a product of the environment we find ourselves in and the experience we have. Its just nice to think we are all looking out for each other (in more than the visual sense!).
Anyway, subject to Wx I am flying this afternoon so I shall be using the whole "Helicopter G-XXXX" RT!
HC.
Didn't have your post in mind when I made the "don't demean PPLs" comment - was thinking of the "big I am" comment earlier; it sort of got my goat on what was already a bad day (for other reasons).
Your other comments are 100% spot on though - we all do different things better as a product of the environment we find ourselves in and the experience we have. Its just nice to think we are all looking out for each other (in more than the visual sense!).
Anyway, subject to Wx I am flying this afternoon so I shall be using the whole "Helicopter G-XXXX" RT!
HC.
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Pardon, VL
Thanks for the tip... It'll be "my 120 cents' worth" this week as I am in the middle of the type rating on the EC-120. Damn thing spins the wrong way and has tons of car-parts in it...
/p
/p