Helicopter Pilot Back Problems
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Two things-
To counter the German compensation board, you might try to find a report that evidently the Australians did many years ago on back problems in helicopters. I'm sure that there are enough ppruner's out there who can also find official reports that will counter this head-in-the-sand attitude.
The second one is that the HH-65 seat was one of the worst I've ever had the pleasure (?) to be strapped into.
I'd suggest that anyone who makes decisions on seats should be strapped into one for a least 8 continuous hours (with only short potty breaks).
And why is it that BMW and other car mfgs can make very comfortable seats??
To counter the German compensation board, you might try to find a report that evidently the Australians did many years ago on back problems in helicopters. I'm sure that there are enough ppruner's out there who can also find official reports that will counter this head-in-the-sand attitude.
The second one is that the HH-65 seat was one of the worst I've ever had the pleasure (?) to be strapped into.
I'd suggest that anyone who makes decisions on seats should be strapped into one for a least 8 continuous hours (with only short potty breaks).
And why is it that BMW and other car mfgs can make very comfortable seats??
If there is no coorelation between helicopter flying and bad backs....how come so many of us old (and not so old) farts have bad backs, are deafer than stumps, and have hemroids like grape clusters?
You ever seen a long time long liner trying to stand up straight?
You ever seen a long time long liner trying to stand up straight?
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It sounds very much that Dr Germany has some preconceptions which are going to be difficult to surmount.
On the positive side I have yet to see the wooden headed preconceived pariah that didn’t fail spectacularly in most applications of rotary aviation. Surely the must same apply to medicine.
The main problem that I saw with the ’47 seat was not so much the discomfort of the seat which granted, compares more or less with many on the same scale, but the exposure to harsh vibration and noise levels thanks to being strapped to the firewall and its proximity to and rigidity with all of the vibe / noise generators. A situation made worse with the harsher and more uncomfortable periodic vibes of the 900 series xmons.
The R22 by comparison is super quiet, very hard to hear the donk, but on looong days, the cramped confine of the cabin possibly compares it to the discomfort levels of B17 ball turret operators.
Dr Germany might like to consider that much if not most of the hearing impairment occurs via the vibes transmitted through the bone behind the ear. That is also one of the places where one is tested from with hearing loss.
Perhaps he could also consider what is acceptable as a OH&S working noise level environment and be presented with the noise levels that rotary pilots are exposed to. Your OH&S levels may well be cemented in legislation.
Aircraft manufacturers should also adhere to that legislation.
Wearing helmets as a noise muffler when one refers to the SPH series DOES NOT COUNT. At least anytime after the first six months the ear muffs are useless, but most importantly all noises resonate and amplify within the hard shell and concentrate on a fairly broad focal point. Pick one up and look at it, see where the focal point is.
Other types of helmets actually dampen inbound vibration through the shell thanks to their shape and the materials used that adhere to the inner surface and many have a positive and separate mechanical ear muff engagement which is someway very effective.
I believe that it is crucial to use one of those at least. Noise dampening ear pieces may be fine too, but when one is supposed to listen for the unusual I would prefer to not use them.
Mind you many of us in this thread probably started off the same as I did with the telex headset which usually did not even cover the ears. 4 or 5 k hours wearing them always guaranteed that to pass the medical one didn’t need just a hundred bucks or so but a pocket full of tenners!
Motorbike enthusiasts used always scoff at our bone-domes, ‘get something that should protect your head and especially the nape of the neck area’, they would say. SPH domes make good rabbit killers in the right deceleration mode.
I notice recently on the OZ ABC inventors program, the invention of an integrated conical structured material which adhered to the inside of the hard shell which allowed much more progressive shock absorption. We need our favourite helmet manufacturers to adopt the same technology.
Also on the positive side, one is allowed to wear hearing aids to pass the hearing standards test, in OZ any rate. (CASR Part 67)
I am not aware of the tests referred to by Shawn Coyle other than those mentioned above, maybe someone else is, if I get a bit of spare time over the wet season I’ll do a search.
With regard to the bloody piles, I had a dear old uncle, an excellent horseman – bless his soul – who used to swear that riding a horse with a wet saddle was the main culprit. Was that your problem Sasless, galloping around the wet English countryside chasing that elusive filly over there?
Heh heh.
On the positive side I have yet to see the wooden headed preconceived pariah that didn’t fail spectacularly in most applications of rotary aviation. Surely the must same apply to medicine.
The main problem that I saw with the ’47 seat was not so much the discomfort of the seat which granted, compares more or less with many on the same scale, but the exposure to harsh vibration and noise levels thanks to being strapped to the firewall and its proximity to and rigidity with all of the vibe / noise generators. A situation made worse with the harsher and more uncomfortable periodic vibes of the 900 series xmons.
The R22 by comparison is super quiet, very hard to hear the donk, but on looong days, the cramped confine of the cabin possibly compares it to the discomfort levels of B17 ball turret operators.
Dr Germany might like to consider that much if not most of the hearing impairment occurs via the vibes transmitted through the bone behind the ear. That is also one of the places where one is tested from with hearing loss.
Perhaps he could also consider what is acceptable as a OH&S working noise level environment and be presented with the noise levels that rotary pilots are exposed to. Your OH&S levels may well be cemented in legislation.
Aircraft manufacturers should also adhere to that legislation.
Wearing helmets as a noise muffler when one refers to the SPH series DOES NOT COUNT. At least anytime after the first six months the ear muffs are useless, but most importantly all noises resonate and amplify within the hard shell and concentrate on a fairly broad focal point. Pick one up and look at it, see where the focal point is.
Other types of helmets actually dampen inbound vibration through the shell thanks to their shape and the materials used that adhere to the inner surface and many have a positive and separate mechanical ear muff engagement which is someway very effective.
I believe that it is crucial to use one of those at least. Noise dampening ear pieces may be fine too, but when one is supposed to listen for the unusual I would prefer to not use them.
Mind you many of us in this thread probably started off the same as I did with the telex headset which usually did not even cover the ears. 4 or 5 k hours wearing them always guaranteed that to pass the medical one didn’t need just a hundred bucks or so but a pocket full of tenners!
Motorbike enthusiasts used always scoff at our bone-domes, ‘get something that should protect your head and especially the nape of the neck area’, they would say. SPH domes make good rabbit killers in the right deceleration mode.
I notice recently on the OZ ABC inventors program, the invention of an integrated conical structured material which adhered to the inside of the hard shell which allowed much more progressive shock absorption. We need our favourite helmet manufacturers to adopt the same technology.
Also on the positive side, one is allowed to wear hearing aids to pass the hearing standards test, in OZ any rate. (CASR Part 67)
I am not aware of the tests referred to by Shawn Coyle other than those mentioned above, maybe someone else is, if I get a bit of spare time over the wet season I’ll do a search.
With regard to the bloody piles, I had a dear old uncle, an excellent horseman – bless his soul – who used to swear that riding a horse with a wet saddle was the main culprit. Was that your problem Sasless, galloping around the wet English countryside chasing that elusive filly over there?
Heh heh.
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I don't know what aircraft you're flying but if you can bring the pedals in a bit (or you closer to the pedals) this may help. I concur with the advice about the oregon aero products, never fly a 500 without it.
I used to get crippling sciatica flying Astars and a definite contribution was flying with my legs extended too much. It was almost an overnight cure when I went to a 500, even though I was flying up to eight hours a day with lots of leaning out. I reckon the much closer pedal position, even fully extended on the 500, played a huge part. The downside, however, is more stress on the knees. Especially if you're working the pedals a lot.
Depending on what flying you are doing, it's not a bad idea to, while flying, make a real effort to sit up really straight with your arse sticking out. Yes, it sounds pretty dumb and might look very strange but even just a few minutes of this every hour or so may help.
I also used a back brace for a while whilst flying the Astars and it seemed to help. Nothing too elaborate just fairly wide, 6" to 8" or so with a big velcro fastener. It was actually thin enough to wear under a shirt and you could certainly wear it under a flight suit. Keeps the gut in nicely, too!
Sorry, all over the place with that reply. The main point being I began to have horrendous pain and numbness, but have literally not had a problem in the last 5 years, (approx 3000 hrs). Good luck.
I used to get crippling sciatica flying Astars and a definite contribution was flying with my legs extended too much. It was almost an overnight cure when I went to a 500, even though I was flying up to eight hours a day with lots of leaning out. I reckon the much closer pedal position, even fully extended on the 500, played a huge part. The downside, however, is more stress on the knees. Especially if you're working the pedals a lot.
Depending on what flying you are doing, it's not a bad idea to, while flying, make a real effort to sit up really straight with your arse sticking out. Yes, it sounds pretty dumb and might look very strange but even just a few minutes of this every hour or so may help.
I also used a back brace for a while whilst flying the Astars and it seemed to help. Nothing too elaborate just fairly wide, 6" to 8" or so with a big velcro fastener. It was actually thin enough to wear under a shirt and you could certainly wear it under a flight suit. Keeps the gut in nicely, too!
Sorry, all over the place with that reply. The main point being I began to have horrendous pain and numbness, but have literally not had a problem in the last 5 years, (approx 3000 hrs). Good luck.
Actually I am fortunate.....my pain in the butt comes not from Wet Saddle Syndrome but from my great love of five star curries and hot peppers.
The wonderful Bell 204/205/212 series of pilot seats is what got me....that and engineers who relied upon sticks and flags to track main rotors.
There were times I felt more like a basketball than a pilot.
The trick to catching them young filly's is to run just fast enough to get caught! Promise them a dish washing machine and you are well on your way to getting your feet under the table.
The wonderful Bell 204/205/212 series of pilot seats is what got me....that and engineers who relied upon sticks and flags to track main rotors.
There were times I felt more like a basketball than a pilot.
The trick to catching them young filly's is to run just fast enough to get caught! Promise them a dish washing machine and you are well on your way to getting your feet under the table.
Avoid imitations
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SASless, don't put your feet too far under the table, it appears that can lead to more than back pain.....
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I can only assume that Dr Germany has a prejudicial interest in making such announcements - I don't know anyone who's flown rotary for more than 2000 hrs who does not suffer from some sort of back discomfort 
Personally, I would not consider getting airborne without a lumbar cushion strapped to the seat, and remembering to shove my ar*e firmly into the crook of the seat, both when stapping in and on a regular basis during longer flights. Despite better seat design nowadays, the back cushion lumbar area never seems to take long to soften &/or flatten, thus negating its lumbar support properties.
I was also encouraged (in my earlier days) to ensure that lap straps were tight enough to keep the bum to the back of the seat, but not too tight to numb the legs!
Other than the above, as others have said, it's a known occupational hazard - all you can do is minimise it by following some of the tips
!
Personally, I would not consider getting airborne without a lumbar cushion strapped to the seat, and remembering to shove my ar*e firmly into the crook of the seat, both when stapping in and on a regular basis during longer flights. Despite better seat design nowadays, the back cushion lumbar area never seems to take long to soften &/or flatten, thus negating its lumbar support properties.
I was also encouraged (in my earlier days) to ensure that lap straps were tight enough to keep the bum to the back of the seat, but not too tight to numb the legs!
Other than the above, as others have said, it's a known occupational hazard - all you can do is minimise it by following some of the tips
!
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Helicopter induced back injuries
I just had to have spinal surgery due to back injury, mostly caused by previous service in the infantry, but probably not helped by helicopters.
I was just wondering if anyone on the forum has or know of any information, journals etc that discuss helicopter induced back injuries. The hope is that with enough relevant information we can convince the bosses we need new seats...
Any links or info would be greatly appreciated!
Ken
I was just wondering if anyone on the forum has or know of any information, journals etc that discuss helicopter induced back injuries. The hope is that with enough relevant information we can convince the bosses we need new seats...
Any links or info would be greatly appreciated!
Ken
ken,
there is a lot of research info out there, but typically it doesn't support the notion that the seats are the problem per se. Probably the most immediate improvement that can be made is to ensure the seat cushions are in good condition and properly padded - compressed cushions will lead to problems very quickly.
The overriding issue seems to be the posture that pilots are forced to adopt when seated, and several reports support that, though the effects of vibration are also considered relevant but there seems to be disagreement on the exact significance.
As someone who has had back problems for the last 20 years, I have some interest in this subject. I also happen to fly a modern type with high cost optional 'High Comfort Seats' that are probably the most uncomfortable seats I've ever flown in!
Anyway, I'm sure the following links will give you some food for thought:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA446461
Helicopter pilot back pain: a prelim... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI
ftp://ftp.rta.nato.int/PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-019/$MP-019-20.PDF
Back muscle EMG of helicopter pilots... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Helicopter pilot back pain: a prelim... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI
there is a lot of research info out there, but typically it doesn't support the notion that the seats are the problem per se. Probably the most immediate improvement that can be made is to ensure the seat cushions are in good condition and properly padded - compressed cushions will lead to problems very quickly.
The overriding issue seems to be the posture that pilots are forced to adopt when seated, and several reports support that, though the effects of vibration are also considered relevant but there seems to be disagreement on the exact significance.
As someone who has had back problems for the last 20 years, I have some interest in this subject. I also happen to fly a modern type with high cost optional 'High Comfort Seats' that are probably the most uncomfortable seats I've ever flown in!
Anyway, I'm sure the following links will give you some food for thought:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA446461
Helicopter pilot back pain: a prelim... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI
ftp://ftp.rta.nato.int/PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-019/$MP-019-20.PDF
Back muscle EMG of helicopter pilots... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
Helicopter pilot back pain: a prelim... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI
As soon as I put oregeon aero seat cushions in a 500 back pain became a thing of the past. Helps to keep fit, i do a lot of mountain biking that seems to help keep back flexible as Mrs 500 is quite so keen after 21 years
