MoD Chinook HC3s finally seeing some use...
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MoD Chinook HC3s finally seeing some use...
From The Register:
Full story at:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12...s_fly_at_last/
One of the sorriest British defence procurement stories of recent times - which means a very sorry story indeed - finally approached resolution this week. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has announced that it will modify eight large helicopters it has had since 2001 so that they can actually be used.
You read that right: even though British troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are crying out for helicopter lift, eight big brand-new choppers have been sitting in storage in the UK, grounded by MoD idiocy, for six years.
You read that right: even though British troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are crying out for helicopter lift, eight big brand-new choppers have been sitting in storage in the UK, grounded by MoD idiocy, for six years.
The MoD has attempted to suggest that the mess is somehow not their fault, saying that Boeing and the US government have not cooperated with them. Boeing have responded that the HC3s would not have a problem getting cleared for instrument flight in the US, that they were delivered exactly to the contract spec and that internal MoD madness isn't their problem.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12...s_fly_at_last/
Now I know I am an over-the-hill, down on my luck, dumbass ol' Chinook pilot.....and anything more than a two knob radio confuses me with great frequency but just what is the problem with the "IFR Suite" that prevents the aircraft from being flown?
Just what gear is in the -3 that keeps it from being usable?
Who is the resident expert who refuses to certify the aircraft (there must a single person with the decision making authority) as equipped?
That decision must be based upon some test data or something....iddn'it?
How did the standard become ".....it cannot be certified as safe although we cannot prove that it is unsafe....".
Seems the RAF should take up the old RN practice of shooting a few Admirals and knock off some Air Marshal's!
Just what gear is in the -3 that keeps it from being usable?
Who is the resident expert who refuses to certify the aircraft (there must a single person with the decision making authority) as equipped?
That decision must be based upon some test data or something....iddn'it?
How did the standard become ".....it cannot be certified as safe although we cannot prove that it is unsafe....".
Seems the RAF should take up the old RN practice of shooting a few Admirals and knock off some Air Marshal's!
The short story is that the aircraft were ordered for Special ops and had a unique part digital/part mechanical flight deck which met no known certification criteria.They also allegedly couldn't actually fit all the avionics in !!
Apart from this original cock up ,the real scandal is that MoD have done nothing for eight years to make the aircraft serviceable.How difficut is it to remove the kit and convert to a standard Mk. 2 ?
Apart from this original cock up ,the real scandal is that MoD have done nothing for eight years to make the aircraft serviceable.How difficut is it to remove the kit and convert to a standard Mk. 2 ?
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Originally Posted by heli
How difficut is it to remove the kit and convert to a standard Mk. 2 ?
Edited to change '£11' to '£11m' - thanks, Bravo73!
Last edited by Pandalet; 21st Dec 2007 at 13:32.
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Chinooks can't fly in the rain ??
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024010/The-422m-Chinook-helicopters-wont-fly-rains.html
Can anyone confirm this is the case ??
Not at all familiar with Chinooks but surely this isnt right ?
Can anyone confirm this is the case ??
Not at all familiar with Chinooks but surely this isnt right ?
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Another piece of sensationalised media crap:
Read 'rain' as IFR, this link is more accurate.....PPRuNe Mil Forum.
Read 'rain' as IFR, this link is more accurate.....PPRuNe Mil Forum.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 4th Jun 2008 at 08:36. Reason: Correct link
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The articale refers to the 8 Chinook Mk 3s that were bought for the Special Forces role. Due to problems with software (amongst others), it was found during evaluation by DERA/QinetiQ that there was a potentially high risk of the flight control system experiencing a runaway. The only way to mitigate this to an acceptable level was to restrict flight in IMC (because this would give less cues to the pilot that a runaway was happening, and would also make the subsequent recovery hazardous) and also restrict cruising flight to greater than 500ft (to give a reasonable margin above the ground for recovery). The media has grabbed hold of this and turned it into "can't fly in the rain", which , of course, sounds utterly ridiculous to the average man/woman in the street. There is currently a program ongoing to convert (or 'revert') the Mk 3s back into a close approximation of the Mk 2 Chinook which has analogue gauges, and does not have the same AFCS architecture that would allow a single software failure to cause an AFCS runaway.
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That's got to be the biggest pile of media cr....p I've ever seen.
Chinooks truck on through all sorts of weather / rain in Png..... that's Papua New Guinea... down near the colonies (Land of Aus) in the southern hemisphere for you Brits!!!!.
cheerio!
SL
Chinooks truck on through all sorts of weather / rain in Png..... that's Papua New Guinea... down near the colonies (Land of Aus) in the southern hemisphere for you Brits!!!!.
cheerio!
SL
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Two Squirrels - about time some one put the story straight!
Screw Loose - the point your missing is that these 8 are like NO other Wokka monster. Someone added bits and when they tested it, QinetiQ spotted the error - I think? This is 47th hand info though! As 2 Squirrels says, to fly them they then put in some sensible limitations to make sure no one was unduly exposed to a hazard - and I have no idea how likely it was to occur [I'm guessing pretty likely 'cause they been sat on the ground for a considerable time!]
Perhaps a better analogy is driving along the motorway and there is a likely hood that the steering wheel might come off - and they cant see how to put a fix in place [bolt] cause this particular machine has a completely different wheel and the standard bolt system wont work. Mr DVLA [driving license people] says Ok, only drive at 5 mph in the dry on non public roads until you fix it - that way you the driver will be able to stop the car if it does come off and, you wont be a potential danger to the public.
Simple really! Clearly we need to fix bigger steering wheels to the Chinook with massive bolts!
Screw Loose - the point your missing is that these 8 are like NO other Wokka monster. Someone added bits and when they tested it, QinetiQ spotted the error - I think? This is 47th hand info though! As 2 Squirrels says, to fly them they then put in some sensible limitations to make sure no one was unduly exposed to a hazard - and I have no idea how likely it was to occur [I'm guessing pretty likely 'cause they been sat on the ground for a considerable time!]
Perhaps a better analogy is driving along the motorway and there is a likely hood that the steering wheel might come off - and they cant see how to put a fix in place [bolt] cause this particular machine has a completely different wheel and the standard bolt system wont work. Mr DVLA [driving license people] says Ok, only drive at 5 mph in the dry on non public roads until you fix it - that way you the driver will be able to stop the car if it does come off and, you wont be a potential danger to the public.
Simple really! Clearly we need to fix bigger steering wheels to the Chinook with massive bolts!
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I think that this thread in Military Aircrew has the full story or, at least, the best you're gonna get
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109805
Not our finest hour in terms of procurement. (When was?)
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109805
Not our finest hour in terms of procurement. (When was?)
Things Are Bad When You Brag About Going Backwards!
The RAF and Boeing-Vertol are stretching when they brag about "reverting" to an older aircraft type.....while ignoring the reasons for doing so.
Modified Boeing Chinook Mk3 Successfully Completes 1st Test Flight
Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - Boeing
Boeing Defence UK Ltd., a subsidiary of The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA], today announced that a UK Chinook Mk3 helicopter successfully completed its first test flight on June 6 at the Ministry of Defence's Boscombe Down facility during the flight testing and evaluation phase of the Mk3 reversion program.
A Boeing team that includes key suppliers QinetiQ and GE Aviation Systems Ltd., working in close collaboration with the Royal Air Force (RAF), is reverting eight Mk3s for compatibility with the RAF fleet of 40 Mk2s. The eight converted helicopters are scheduled for delivery from late 2009 through 2010 and will join the rest of the RAF Chinook fleet at RAF Odiham in Hampshire.
"Significantly increasing the heavy-lift capability of the RAF, the additional eight Chinook Mk3 helicopters will help support demanding operational needs in Afghanistan," said Rear Adm. Tony Johnstone-Burt, Commander of the Joint Helicopter Command.
"This program, which is a team effort empowered by the RAF and key suppliers QinetiQ and GE Aviation Systems, is a wonderful example of working together to achieve an expanded mission-ready fleet," said Jim O'Neill, vice president of Integrated Logistics for Boeing Global Services and Support. "Getting these aircraft into service will help save lives and support essential missions."
A Chinook helicopter can carry up to 55 troops or 10 tons of freight and be used in a variety of operational roles, including troop transportation and casualty evacuation. They are highly capable and versatile helicopters that cope well with many diverse environments, including the harsh conditions in Afghanistan.
A wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company and a business unit of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, Boeing Defence UK Ltd. currently has employees at 20 locations throughout the United Kingdom supporting Ministry of Defence and U.S. military programs.
A unit of The Boeing Company, BoeingIntegrated Defense Systemsis one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.
Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - Boeing
Boeing Defence UK Ltd., a subsidiary of The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA], today announced that a UK Chinook Mk3 helicopter successfully completed its first test flight on June 6 at the Ministry of Defence's Boscombe Down facility during the flight testing and evaluation phase of the Mk3 reversion program.
A Boeing team that includes key suppliers QinetiQ and GE Aviation Systems Ltd., working in close collaboration with the Royal Air Force (RAF), is reverting eight Mk3s for compatibility with the RAF fleet of 40 Mk2s. The eight converted helicopters are scheduled for delivery from late 2009 through 2010 and will join the rest of the RAF Chinook fleet at RAF Odiham in Hampshire.
"Significantly increasing the heavy-lift capability of the RAF, the additional eight Chinook Mk3 helicopters will help support demanding operational needs in Afghanistan," said Rear Adm. Tony Johnstone-Burt, Commander of the Joint Helicopter Command.
"This program, which is a team effort empowered by the RAF and key suppliers QinetiQ and GE Aviation Systems, is a wonderful example of working together to achieve an expanded mission-ready fleet," said Jim O'Neill, vice president of Integrated Logistics for Boeing Global Services and Support. "Getting these aircraft into service will help save lives and support essential missions."
A Chinook helicopter can carry up to 55 troops or 10 tons of freight and be used in a variety of operational roles, including troop transportation and casualty evacuation. They are highly capable and versatile helicopters that cope well with many diverse environments, including the harsh conditions in Afghanistan.
A wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company and a business unit of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, Boeing Defence UK Ltd. currently has employees at 20 locations throughout the United Kingdom supporting Ministry of Defence and U.S. military programs.
A unit of The Boeing Company, BoeingIntegrated Defense Systemsis one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.
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Hi SASless,
You have an important point. In my previous life there was an forrest technican who said: "There is nothing more stupid than a stupid engineer !"
Maybe a wall streeter.. ?
Fly safe !
You have an important point. In my previous life there was an forrest technican who said: "There is nothing more stupid than a stupid engineer !"
Maybe a wall streeter.. ?
Fly safe !
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chinooks
watched a bit of telly bbc last night ,prob been answered before but can someone tell me why were rebuilding those chinooks , why did we buy them with the wrong equipment/avionics etc, or is this just a one off glich any one?helispeediii
I'd suspect they were the HC3's uniquely ordered by the UK powers the be to a wrong spec, then stuck in a hangar for 10 years debating what to do with them, before which they suffered extensive corrosion.
Only in a country as breathtakingly daft as this could such cluster f**k occur.
See http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ook-hc-3s.html
Only in a country as breathtakingly daft as this could such cluster f**k occur.
See http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ook-hc-3s.html