AB206 -v- B206 & EASA.
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AB206 -v- B206 & EASA.
Hello everyone,
I am hoping, that through the Pprune forum, I can reach the owners/operators of AB206's throughout Europe. 487 machines (or thereabouts)were built by Agusta, 40 of which reside in the UK. I have written the below correspondence to the UK owners, and have received a high percentage of replies - all of which I must add, consisted of negativity concerning the current standards of parts availability under the new EASA ruling.
I am working hard to hopefully resolve this bizarre problem, and would welcome comments from any AB206 owner/operators with experiences, both good or bad in obtaining parts. Please contact me via either PM or email in this regard. Thanks for your time!
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Dear AB206 owner,
From personal experience of the delays in getting parts for my Agusta Bell 206, I feel it necessary to publish this open discussion document regarding the supply of approved parts for my AB206. Due to recent changes in legislation and the rigorous enforcing of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell", I have found that the support for the Agusta Bell Fleet in UK to be sadly lacking.Having discovered that the majority of the parts supplied by Agusta for fitment to AB206's are sourced from Bell Helicopters, and then submitted for inspection prior to having an EASA Form 1 produced by the Type Certificate owner, it begs the question "Why does it take so long to get AB206 parts?"Having suffered recently from the lack of parts availability, and the grounding of my aircraft until the parts were received (nearly 7 weeks for a half-shaft bearing), I decided to investigate this further, so that I could satisfy myself that everything was either being done or going to be done to keep me airworthy and legal in the future.I contacted EASA and the CAA regarding my plight, however, as supportive and sympathetic as they were, the outcome was not going to change.It is apparent that due to the fact "everybody" was fitting Bell parts to their Agusta because the lead times/availability were good, Agusta were not aware of the amount of items that were required to support the UK fleet. Thus, the provisioning of the parts by Agusta to support the AB206 got smaller and smaller to the point were everyday items were not available. Now that the new legislation is starting to bite, and maintenance companies are under considerable obligation to fit "Applicable" parts, the provisioning of the parts really has to start from scratch it appears. One could consider that other EASA regulated countries still toed the line, and would have given Agusta a feel for the requirements, but further contact with European owners/operators indicated an ignorance or avoidance of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell" ruling.I am also aware that extra discounts are available to Agusta Service Centres if parts for scheduled maintenance are ordered 12 months or more in advance, thus allowing Agusta a reasonable amount of time to provision for known parts that are arising.I would much appreciate any feedback from Agusta Bell 206 owners regarding the supply of parts from Agusta, and the effects that they have experienced due to encountering the same problems that I have recently.
I have a meeting scheduled with Agusta senior management before the end of the year. It would be extremely helpful if all owner/operators could contact me as soon as possible in this regard with your experiences/current problems and observations.
Thank you in advance,
Kind regards.
I am hoping, that through the Pprune forum, I can reach the owners/operators of AB206's throughout Europe. 487 machines (or thereabouts)were built by Agusta, 40 of which reside in the UK. I have written the below correspondence to the UK owners, and have received a high percentage of replies - all of which I must add, consisted of negativity concerning the current standards of parts availability under the new EASA ruling.
I am working hard to hopefully resolve this bizarre problem, and would welcome comments from any AB206 owner/operators with experiences, both good or bad in obtaining parts. Please contact me via either PM or email in this regard. Thanks for your time!
============================================================ ==
Dear AB206 owner,
From personal experience of the delays in getting parts for my Agusta Bell 206, I feel it necessary to publish this open discussion document regarding the supply of approved parts for my AB206. Due to recent changes in legislation and the rigorous enforcing of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell", I have found that the support for the Agusta Bell Fleet in UK to be sadly lacking.Having discovered that the majority of the parts supplied by Agusta for fitment to AB206's are sourced from Bell Helicopters, and then submitted for inspection prior to having an EASA Form 1 produced by the Type Certificate owner, it begs the question "Why does it take so long to get AB206 parts?"Having suffered recently from the lack of parts availability, and the grounding of my aircraft until the parts were received (nearly 7 weeks for a half-shaft bearing), I decided to investigate this further, so that I could satisfy myself that everything was either being done or going to be done to keep me airworthy and legal in the future.I contacted EASA and the CAA regarding my plight, however, as supportive and sympathetic as they were, the outcome was not going to change.It is apparent that due to the fact "everybody" was fitting Bell parts to their Agusta because the lead times/availability were good, Agusta were not aware of the amount of items that were required to support the UK fleet. Thus, the provisioning of the parts by Agusta to support the AB206 got smaller and smaller to the point were everyday items were not available. Now that the new legislation is starting to bite, and maintenance companies are under considerable obligation to fit "Applicable" parts, the provisioning of the parts really has to start from scratch it appears. One could consider that other EASA regulated countries still toed the line, and would have given Agusta a feel for the requirements, but further contact with European owners/operators indicated an ignorance or avoidance of the "No Bell parts to be fitted to an Agusta Bell" ruling.I am also aware that extra discounts are available to Agusta Service Centres if parts for scheduled maintenance are ordered 12 months or more in advance, thus allowing Agusta a reasonable amount of time to provision for known parts that are arising.I would much appreciate any feedback from Agusta Bell 206 owners regarding the supply of parts from Agusta, and the effects that they have experienced due to encountering the same problems that I have recently.
I have a meeting scheduled with Agusta senior management before the end of the year. It would be extremely helpful if all owner/operators could contact me as soon as possible in this regard with your experiences/current problems and observations.
Thank you in advance,
Kind regards.
Airandground based in staffordshire have a huge inventory of parts both new and o/h . Why dont you get agusta to buy them and then sell them on for double the price ? I am sure you could have got your part by return post!
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Thanks for the reply. Although it seems that not many AB206 jockey's use this forum.
Are the parts mentioned all ex Saudi Air Force? from recent personal experience, they have no paperwork other than a C of C form Air and Ground. Traceable they maybe - but to a military source only. The same problem was apparent when the 206 parts stock was purchased from the Maltese Air Force a few years ago!Some CAA Surveyors are in tune to what the real world is like when trying to purchase Agusta parts but the majority back off as soon as the term ex-military is used.We have the stock listing, and to be honest it is pretty obvious that the parts have been picked at for a number of years. Most of the stock available comprises of major components like Masts, Transmissions and TR Gearboxes. There are several Driveshafts on the list too, but they are all the three hole couplings and not the 4 hole coupling type that is fitted to B111's. Even if we secured a 3 hole coupling for a BIII machine, we could not fit it because it has been moded out..
Graham Elliott
Are the parts mentioned all ex Saudi Air Force? from recent personal experience, they have no paperwork other than a C of C form Air and Ground. Traceable they maybe - but to a military source only. The same problem was apparent when the 206 parts stock was purchased from the Maltese Air Force a few years ago!Some CAA Surveyors are in tune to what the real world is like when trying to purchase Agusta parts but the majority back off as soon as the term ex-military is used.We have the stock listing, and to be honest it is pretty obvious that the parts have been picked at for a number of years. Most of the stock available comprises of major components like Masts, Transmissions and TR Gearboxes. There are several Driveshafts on the list too, but they are all the three hole couplings and not the 4 hole coupling type that is fitted to B111's. Even if we secured a 3 hole coupling for a BIII machine, we could not fit it because it has been moded out..
Graham Elliott
Nigel, as you know I have beneffited from the Airandground parts stock: my machine would have been a dead duck without it. But I was lucky, I found someone with the right certification to 'overhaul' the part and release it on the correct paperwork.
The industry is not prepared to take parts without the right paperwork: without it, they are just expensive paperweights.
The industry is not prepared to take parts without the right paperwork: without it, they are just expensive paperweights.
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AB206 Parts Fiasco
Hi Graham , I am too the owner of an AB 206 ( G-PELS) that requires TT straps...the identical part number to the Bell part...absolutely identical. In fact prior to me buying her we she was fitted with and has been flying with BELL TT straps fitted. I too have been speaking with the CAA and await their decision as Agusta are giving a lead time of 18 months for a 2 year life part!! We all wish to be safe but this is paperwork for paperwork's sake . Please let me know if you get anywhere or I too could assist and attend a meeting. PELS is a very expensive ornament at the moment.
Cheers
Michael
Cheers
Michael
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AB206 v B206
Hello Graham,
Did you succeed in the meeting with Agusta at All ???
We are a maintenance company and are at present carrying out an ARC Renewal, and as you have said, due to TCDS, if the helicopter has been fitted with Bell Parts with no NTO (No Technical Objection) or Agusta supporting paperwork, then this part has to be classed as a bogus part, stupid I know, as all new parts come from Bell anyway.
Please drop me a line on how you got on, as we are thinking of pursuing this ourselves.
"We are not here to annoy the owners or upset other maintenance companies, but this needs to be sorted !!!"
Did you succeed in the meeting with Agusta at All ???
We are a maintenance company and are at present carrying out an ARC Renewal, and as you have said, due to TCDS, if the helicopter has been fitted with Bell Parts with no NTO (No Technical Objection) or Agusta supporting paperwork, then this part has to be classed as a bogus part, stupid I know, as all new parts come from Bell anyway.
Please drop me a line on how you got on, as we are thinking of pursuing this ourselves.
"We are not here to annoy the owners or upset other maintenance companies, but this needs to be sorted !!!"
Another view
Let's take this situation... You install an Bell part to your Agusta helicopter. Then, FAA issues an Emergency AD against certain batch of parts, and your part is included in the listing... but how do you know? Since you have an Agusta helicopter you do not need to know about FAA ADs and Bell Service Bulletins, but you must check italian ENAC "Prescrizioni di Aeronavigabilita" ( OK, EASA now, but not 100%) and Agusta Westland Bolletini Tecnici. Since Agusta as TC holder knows nothing about Bell parts installed to Agusta helicopters, they have no means to warn you unless Bell produced part become "Agusta part" by sending them thru their system.
Remember, airworthiness is the responsibility of owner/operator, not your maintenance provider. How do you get around this? Tracking both EASA /Agusta and FAA / Bell documents?
You can sometimes fall in a big trap, if not very careful. Been there, (nearly) done that.
hoistop
Remember, airworthiness is the responsibility of owner/operator, not your maintenance provider. How do you get around this? Tracking both EASA /Agusta and FAA / Bell documents?
You can sometimes fall in a big trap, if not very careful. Been there, (nearly) done that.
hoistop
I know Graham ended up selling his AB206 in the early part of last year. I think he gave up faced by a wall of disinterest.
BSHJAY, which helo are you looking after, as a matter of interest?
BSHJAY, which helo are you looking after, as a matter of interest?
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AB206
Thanks Hoistop,
As you mentioned, covering all aspects of SB's/AD's wether they are FAA/ENAC/EASA/CAA/TCAD is fine, to some point this covers the maintenance company, but when the engineer signs out the release cert and has fitted a Bell Part that has not gone through the Agusta hands, this is then going against the TCDS and therefore is classed as a bogus part and risking the approval of the company.
Some authorities have agreed with this practice, to cover all ad's/sb's, but ask them to put it in writing !!!
Please, if anyone can give assistance with this matter, please drop me an email.
As you mentioned, covering all aspects of SB's/AD's wether they are FAA/ENAC/EASA/CAA/TCAD is fine, to some point this covers the maintenance company, but when the engineer signs out the release cert and has fitted a Bell Part that has not gone through the Agusta hands, this is then going against the TCDS and therefore is classed as a bogus part and risking the approval of the company.
Some authorities have agreed with this practice, to cover all ad's/sb's, but ask them to put it in writing !!!
Please, if anyone can give assistance with this matter, please drop me an email.
BSHJAY
There was a good discussion about Bell Vs Agusta in this thread
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/308...-costs-uk.html
Some of the guys there did seem to know a lot more than me about the issues, although there was never a conclusion.
Let me know if you need any more help or contacts at Agusta. I can supply you with a copy of the letter I had from Agusta if I can find it in my files.
There was a good discussion about Bell Vs Agusta in this thread
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/308...-costs-uk.html
Some of the guys there did seem to know a lot more than me about the issues, although there was never a conclusion.
Let me know if you need any more help or contacts at Agusta. I can supply you with a copy of the letter I had from Agusta if I can find it in my files.
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206BIII Link
Very Interesting 206_Jock
I see from alot of forums, the argument with AB206 & 206 parts has been around a while now and unfortunatley will always be around because like everybody else you kind of get abit hacked of by the authorities, not helping, so, give up and sell the machine (if you can!), We all just want the best.
I take it by the comments in the link from your posts, you managed to get your parts approved by Agusta ?
does the new owner have a copy of this letter for his records?
I see from alot of forums, the argument with AB206 & 206 parts has been around a while now and unfortunatley will always be around because like everybody else you kind of get abit hacked of by the authorities, not helping, so, give up and sell the machine (if you can!), We all just want the best.
I take it by the comments in the link from your posts, you managed to get your parts approved by Agusta ?
does the new owner have a copy of this letter for his records?
All of the parts at air and ground are or can be , sold with complete paperwork i believe , and are a huge discount to new prices . Would you say that an AB 206 would now sell at a discount to a Bell due to all this nonsense ? If so i would be quite keen to buy one if anyone knows of one for sale at a good price !!
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AB206 Spares
To all concerned above, re spares for the AB206.
The bottom line is that although the same, Bell parts, with no Agusta PW or an Agusta NTO CANNOT be fitted to an AB206, not only does this invalidate you TC, but as stated earlier because the 2 companies operate under different legislative organisations, and different quality procedures, your part unless Agusta know about it may not be subject to a major service instruction.
As NigelH has said about, Air & Ground in Staffordshire do have a considerably large inventory of Agusta original AB206 parts. Whilst this stock has come from the RSAF, the vast majority of the rotable assmeblies have not been fitted to any operational aircraft. Air & Ground now have a current licensed engineer looking after the AB206 inventory, so speaks your language and can provide all the 206 inventory with Form 1's as required.
If anybody wants any help, PM me and I will point in the right direction.
SFF
The bottom line is that although the same, Bell parts, with no Agusta PW or an Agusta NTO CANNOT be fitted to an AB206, not only does this invalidate you TC, but as stated earlier because the 2 companies operate under different legislative organisations, and different quality procedures, your part unless Agusta know about it may not be subject to a major service instruction.
As NigelH has said about, Air & Ground in Staffordshire do have a considerably large inventory of Agusta original AB206 parts. Whilst this stock has come from the RSAF, the vast majority of the rotable assmeblies have not been fitted to any operational aircraft. Air & Ground now have a current licensed engineer looking after the AB206 inventory, so speaks your language and can provide all the 206 inventory with Form 1's as required.
If anybody wants any help, PM me and I will point in the right direction.
SFF
You could say i have gone from Kate to Nora ...as i have sold my beloved 350 and am looking for an AB 206
however i would say my 350 is a bit better than Kate and the 206 is not as bad as Nora ( she is probably a Robbo ) I will buy another 350 when the prices have halved as i expect them to
ps 2 helis i have been watching have been sold for HALF their asking price
however i would say my 350 is a bit better than Kate and the 206 is not as bad as Nora ( she is probably a Robbo ) I will buy another 350 when the prices have halved as i expect them to ps 2 helis i have been watching have been sold for HALF their asking price
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TT Straps
Only help, choppersquad,
Is goto Sloanes and tell them you need AB206 TT's, and they will sort the rest for you, lead time isn't that bad, ours were ordered 20/03 delivered 14/04.
(and no I don't mean a year!!!!)
BSHJAY
Is goto Sloanes and tell them you need AB206 TT's, and they will sort the rest for you, lead time isn't that bad, ours were ordered 20/03 delivered 14/04.
(and no I don't mean a year!!!!)
BSHJAY