Guimbal Cabri G2
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Looks like Eurotecheli in Italy got their hands on a bundle of Cabris formerly owned by Heli Aviation (Babcock) and are offering them for sale now:
D-HAVH
D-HAVJ
D-HAVI
D-HAVE
D-HAVH
D-HAVJ
D-HAVI
D-HAVE
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R22 life limited components at 2200 engine Hobbs:
Engine--same as G2
MRGB overhaul (replace main gearbox pinion)--similar to G2
TRGB overhaul (replace gear set and pinion)--similar to G2
Some fasteners: coning hinge bolt, pitch horn screws, TRB attach bolt--doesn't seem like that big of a deal
The big differences: MRBs and TRBs are life limited on the 22 (and 44, and 66). Yes, those are expensive.
6 months for an R22 overhaul? That's just ridiculous. It doesn't take anywhere near that long unless you don't order any parts ahead of time and your gearbox overhaul shop is sloooooow. All of the R&R steps are the same, G2 or R22: both gearboxes, engine, blades, misc. stuff.
People continue to charge more per hour for a G2. Therefore, unless the machine can simply command more profit, it has to be more expensive to run, Robinson life-limited components not withstanding.
Engine--same as G2
MRGB overhaul (replace main gearbox pinion)--similar to G2
TRGB overhaul (replace gear set and pinion)--similar to G2
Some fasteners: coning hinge bolt, pitch horn screws, TRB attach bolt--doesn't seem like that big of a deal
The big differences: MRBs and TRBs are life limited on the 22 (and 44, and 66). Yes, those are expensive.
6 months for an R22 overhaul? That's just ridiculous. It doesn't take anywhere near that long unless you don't order any parts ahead of time and your gearbox overhaul shop is sloooooow. All of the R&R steps are the same, G2 or R22: both gearboxes, engine, blades, misc. stuff.
People continue to charge more per hour for a G2. Therefore, unless the machine can simply command more profit, it has to be more expensive to run, Robinson life-limited components not withstanding.
Most of the places I flew R22s seemed to just get rid of them at 2200 hours. I'm sure they didn't just throw them away (though who knows there certainly are enough of the little buggers around) but they did just replace them with another used (or freshly overhauled) one. Either way I never saw the same 22 twice at one school.
Perhaps when there are as many G2s out there as 22s and schools can just lease another used one, the per hour price will finally drop to a more reasonable one?
Perhaps when there are as many G2s out there as 22s and schools can just lease another used one, the per hour price will finally drop to a more reasonable one?
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Interesting. In this neck of the woods the 22s just get overhauled. I've flown ships that are on their third or fourth overhaul. New carpet and paint definitely come into play at the second overhaul!
The difference between the Cabri safety notice and a Robinson one is it says ‘use the controls we provided’ ie right pedal whereas a Robbie one says ‘ Don’t fly the aircraft to its limits as you might lose control’ 
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Easy on the Robbie bashing there, Crab 
All helicopters have their Achille's heels.
I have not done the necessary research, but I bet that since the G2 has been introduced there have been a lot more G2's lost due to lack of student pilot fenestron appreciation than there have been 22's lost to low-g or turbulence penetration issues. I will admit that the consequences of the former tend to be less severe than the consequences of the latter. But I can't think of a single low-g/turbulence induced accident in recent memory in the US. I'll have to dive into the NTSB database later when I have more time and report back.
All helicopters have their Achille's heels. I have not done the necessary research, but I bet that since the G2 has been introduced there have been a lot more G2's lost due to lack of student pilot fenestron appreciation than there have been 22's lost to low-g or turbulence penetration issues. I will admit that the consequences of the former tend to be less severe than the consequences of the latter. But I can't think of a single low-g/turbulence induced accident in recent memory in the US. I'll have to dive into the NTSB database later when I have more time and report back.
I suspect the student accidents in robbies are more likely to be rollovers - the low G or turbulence issues tend to be among owners and more experienced users.
I don't think there have been many losses due to student/fenestron lack of pedal, just a few brown trousers.
I don't think there have been many losses due to student/fenestron lack of pedal, just a few brown trousers.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I suspect the student accidents in robbies are more likely to be rollovers - the low G or turbulence issues tend to be among owners and more experienced users.
,...you're probably onto something here.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I don't think there have been many losses due to student/fenestron lack of pedal, just a few brown trousers.
After wading through the NTSB reports for G2 and R22 accidents in the US from Jan 2016 when the first G2 accident appears to the present day, approx. 50% of the G2 accidents are associated with loss of yaw control, while the same is true of only about 20% of the R22 accidents.
It's also noteworthy that there were zero R22 accidents associated with low-g or turbulence in that time frame, but lots of rollovers, just as you said.
This is one of yours I believe
and the truth is that the Cabri is a better helicopter
Everyone has their favorite helicopter they like to defend. Everyone has their favorite helicopter they like to hate. Fly and maintain any of them, from Mosquito homebuilt to an MI-26, within manufacturer's limits and you will be just fine. The trick is doing just that. Some are harder than others to do that with. I've got a whopping 3 hours on feneston equipped helicopters between a G2 and an EC130, all after I supposedly knew how to fly helicopters. I found yaw control in the hover to be quite a bit more difficult compared to my first 10 minutes in an R22 before I even knew how to fly one. On the other hand, it still takes all my concentration to auto a Robinson. The first time I auto'd a G2 the entire thing was a yawn. Different helicopters, different challenges.
Bottom line: the truth hurts if it messes with your vision of reality.
Bottom line: the truth hurts if it messes with your vision of reality.
Crab
Happy Xmas to you, a pound or too heavier like all of us i suspect
Every helicopter type has its foibles the small ones tend to show them more than the bigger ones, in my experience
341 have to be careful doing spot turns in a strong wind due to size of rear fine so can be easy to over torque
342 with optimised fenestron a load better
500 massive pedal movements due to powerful tail rotor on a short lever arm
520 have to anticipate with feet like no other
206, sluggish tail rotor response, older ones not great
350/355 can be a bastard to land from a low hover
300 has an interesting roll in hover taxi when wind from one quarter
Robinsons, probably more issues than any other type, but as is said fly it within its limits
Enstroms, most have no guts what so ever ever, so have to be on your game
Treat each type with respect and get someone to show you how not to fly it !
Happy Xmas to you, a pound or too heavier like all of us i suspect
Every helicopter type has its foibles the small ones tend to show them more than the bigger ones, in my experience
341 have to be careful doing spot turns in a strong wind due to size of rear fine so can be easy to over torque
342 with optimised fenestron a load better
500 massive pedal movements due to powerful tail rotor on a short lever arm
520 have to anticipate with feet like no other
206, sluggish tail rotor response, older ones not great
350/355 can be a bastard to land from a low hover
300 has an interesting roll in hover taxi when wind from one quarter
Robinsons, probably more issues than any other type, but as is said fly it within its limits
Enstroms, most have no guts what so ever ever, so have to be on your game
Treat each type with respect and get someone to show you how not to fly it !
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
This is one of yours I believe
the truth is that the Cabri is a better helicopter
Personally, I'd like to see a helicopter with the best of both breeds. Say a G2 with a regular tail rotor, less friction in the controls, enough engine to match the performance of an R22, and matching the economics of the R22 as well (renting for $250USD/hr).
And that is the crux of every discussion on these topics.
Must be cheap, cheap, cheeeeeap (anyone else hear birdies?), because cheap = better.
The operators buying then in quantity do so for a reason and it's not because it is more "expensive" than a Robbie.
The only real downside to the Cabri is that it's useless at high density altitude.
Chasing away a few punters who can't see beyond the nickels and dimes, seems like another pro to me
Must be cheap, cheap, cheeeeeap (anyone else hear birdies?), because cheap = better.
The operators buying then in quantity do so for a reason and it's not because it is more "expensive" than a Robbie.
The only real downside to the Cabri is that it's useless at high density altitude.
Chasing away a few punters who can't see beyond the nickels and dimes, seems like another pro to me
Hugehs 500 - Happy Christmas to you too - I try to measure the festive weight gain in Kg as it makes the numbers look smaller
aa777888 - my point is that you have your favourite helicopter and you defend it strongly, didn't like the Cabri as you found yaw control tricky and so convince yourself the R22 is superior, despite its well documented problems - mainly due to the rotor head design.
aa777888 - my point is that you have your favourite helicopter and you defend it strongly, didn't like the Cabri as you found yaw control tricky and so convince yourself the R22 is superior, despite its well documented problems - mainly due to the rotor head design.
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I never said the R22 was superior or my favorite. I did say it was different. Meaning that the G2 is better and worse at certain things than the R22, and vice versa.
I have many "favorite" helicopters. Too bad I'll never have the $$$ to fly any of them, or anything else other than Robinsons. I guess that means I should just hang it up and get out of the flying biz', eh?
I have many "favorite" helicopters. Too bad I'll never have the $$$ to fly any of them, or anything else other than Robinsons. I guess that means I should just hang it up and get out of the flying biz', eh?
Well, you could have tried serving your country and then had lots of expensive helicopters to choose from to fly - you pays your money and makes your choice.