Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

BALPA refuse to help its membership

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

BALPA refuse to help its membership

Old 22nd Sep 2007, 18:26
  #1 (permalink)  

There are no limits
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 503
BALPA refuse to help its membership

So it seems that BALPA refuse to support the challenge to the CAA's Age Discrimination Policy

The June 07 NEC AGREED that this request from the Flight Safety Group ‘to decline to challenge the ban on over 60 single crew commercial helicopter flying’ would be supported.
My resignation is in the post. Perhaps another Union will come along that exists to help its members.
What Limits is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2007, 18:31
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Essex
Age: 41
Posts: 15
Why would they help, after all the money they pocket from us, how on earth would the CAA and BALPA get their cut.

Such a shame about this industry, maybe try going to IPA.
118.50 is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2007, 21:38
  #3 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,497
I've been in this industry for quite some time. I have considered membership a couple of times BUT given the past record on a number of issues, regretfully so far I've decided it just isn't worth it.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2007, 22:10
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,119
I've also been in the industry for some time (even working with Shy Torque for a few years) but unlike Shy I thought BALPA membership was worth the cost, even to the level of getting involved....until yesterday..


Regards, BT. Ex-(as of yesterday) PAS BALPA Company Council Chairman.
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2007, 22:16
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 1,368
I have thought about joining BALPA on a number of occasions. I never have because of things like this.

They are SO biased towards airline plank jockeys and the larger organisations. It makes very little sense for the run of the mill onshore ops pilots. Indeed, on one occasion when I came across them, they have had an adverse effect on my situation.

I can imagine it might be different for the offshore guys and gals.
Helinut is offline  
Old 22nd Sep 2007, 23:58
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 687
BALPA has been very useful in the offshore industry as it has helped unite the pilot work force. This has enabled us to push for better pay and conditions. One allowance has recently been increased by over 300% due to BALPA's support - well worth the subscription.

HF
Hummingfrog is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 08:11
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,119
It is not the onshore market itself that The BALPA membership as a whole won't support, its the single pilot ops.

As the final paragraph in the BALPA argument against the age 60+ campaign, sent to the PAS CC, the BALPA Flight Safety Committee quoted BALPA policy:

Their quotation below.... with my 'sic' added!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MINIMUM CREW OF TWO PILOTS
That the policy of the Association be to obtain by all possible means the necessary change in legislation to enforce the requirement that a minimum of two pilots holding current Commercial Licences and Instrument Ratings and qualified on the type should be carried on all fights (sic) under IFR and at night on public transport aircraft, including those certificated for single pilot operation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 12:44
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: SW England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,243
Very disappointing. I shall have to sit down and compare the remaining benefits (insurance, legal cover) to the new-found downsides (lack of requested support on age-related issues, unrequested requirement for 2-pilot ops) before I decide whether to stay in. BALPA may have been very helpful in the past, but they're only as good as their last campaign. In this case, that equates to not-very-good-at-all.
Thud_and_Blunder is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 16:40
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: THE MANGROVE SWAMPS (RETIRED)
Posts: 201
Grrr Bloated Airline Pilot's Administration

BALPA exists as it always has done, to support its fixed wing members and the bloated adminstrative staff. It, like the CAA, has contributed to the airline industry in UK being a sad shadow of that in the USA. Thank goodness that during my time as a pilot I never contributed one penny to their coffers
Mama Mangrove is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 16:53
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,684
As expected from an organisation that lost it's way many years ago. BALPA....it's all in the name folks!

A sad society.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 17:09
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,119
Thud, you are right; it is very disappointing!

Especially when one considers that one of the factors the BALPA NEC quoted in formulating the "BALPA 2007 Strategic Flightplan" was:

Legislative changes (most topically age discrimination)
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 23rd Sep 2007, 17:19
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,119
TC.

I have to admit in this instance I have to totally agree with you!

Regards, BT
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2007, 10:24
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: sunny side up
Posts: 82
Any remarks from BALPA would be appreciated.
Max_Chat is offline  
Old 24th Sep 2007, 11:22
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,119
What BALPA said to PAS:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single Crew engaged in commercial air transport operations over the Age of 60, BALPA has been asked by Members to challenge this position.


The maximum age limit for the Captain of a multi pilot commercial air transport operations, is, with certain restrictions 65 years, this has been the position in the UK for the last 20 years and it is a position that has now been adopted worldwide via an ICAO SARP. The age limit for single crew commercial air transport operation carrying passengers has remained as age 60.


The current CAA definition makes it clear that winchmen, police observers, paramedics etc. are considered as equivalent to public transport passengers.

Thus single crew helicopter pilots engaged in police, rescue or pipeline observation duties can not be employed beyond the age of 60, in spite of Age Discrimination Legislation now being in place.


Do we wish to challenge this? The Police Air Services CC has asked BALPA to support a 60+ work campaign, the British Helicopter Advisory Board are keen to support the same issue.


At a practical licensing level, it is only flying within the UK which is being considered with ICAO SARPs thus not being relevant and the UK ANO may well be capable of amendment at the present time. However on the adoption by EASA of competency in the fields of operations and licensing, in perhaps eighteen months time, it is unlikely that a dispensation from EASA rules would then be permitted.

We anticipate that EASA will adopt JAR OPS, therefore it is relevant to this debate to examine JAR OPS 1.040 which states;

JAR-OPS 1.040 Additional crew members.
An operator shall ensure that crew members who are not required flight or cabin crew members. have also been trained in. and are proficient to perform. their assigned duties.

It seems clear that JAA recognises a category of crew which is neither flight crew nor cabin crew and could perhaps be winchmen, observers etc. If these categories could be reclassified in the view of the CAA as crew rather than passengers, then pilots could continue in employment as single crew beyond the age of 60.

But should these people, some of them BALPA members, be required to accept an increased risk in their employment with an age 60-65 single pilot? They already do accept an increased risk with a less than 60 year old single pilot in comparison with a multi pilot public transport flight. The additional risk is perhaps not large, may indeed have reduced in recent decades and perhaps could be mitigated further by additional medical surveillance as is already the case for Class 1 certificate holders over the age of 70. However there have been two recent fatal accidents involving single crew public transport flights and the risks due to disorientation of a single pilot must be recognised.



Ifalpa policy regarding age 60 remains delicately balanced with the latest statement emphasising that pilots should have access to a full pension at age 60 and leaving the retirement age more open than was previously the case.

Recent acceptance of age 65 by US ALPA suggests that Ifalpa policy may change.

Our own BALPA policy supports universal multi crew operations on a flight safety basis and of course such multi crew public transport helicopter operation continues in the North Sea oilfields.



MINIMUM CREW OF TWO PILOTS

That the policy of the Association be to obtain by all possible means the necessary change in legislation to enforce the requirement that a minimum of two pilots holding current Commercial Licences and Instrument Ratings and qualified on the type should be carried on all fights under IFR and at night on public transport aircraft, including those certificated for single pilot operation.


------------------------------------
The June 07 NEC AGREED that this request from the Flight Safety Group "to decline to challenge the ban on over 60 single crew commercial helicopter flying" would be supported.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 11:40
  #15 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,617
I may join you Bertie, considering the support we had during our recent direct employment issues!......link
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 11:56
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 1,368
I suppose it is not surprising really. A Union will always tend to support what it considers are the interests of the majority of its members, as a matter of sef-interest. So they want more two crew flying because that relates to the major employment areas and membership in planks and offshore. As far as they are concerned, we are hardly worth bothering with.

As TC says, it is in the name.
Helinut is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 16:01
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 65
If the helicopter pilots around the world had been just a little smarter, and more union minded, the pay and the pensions would've been on a decent level long time ago, with no need to work past 60. For all of us that love aviation also after retirement, there's a flyingclub at every airfield.. think I'll stick to gliders when I get there, very little noise and no vibrations!
northseaspray is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 21:36
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: SW England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,243
northseaspray,

Your reply shows exactly the kind of attitude within BALPA that emergency-service/charter helicopter pilots are up against. They (the blinkered-BALPA muppets) must find it hard to believe, as they count the days down to the last flight they have to make to qualify for their pension, that some of us do the job because we genuinely love it. I can see that trudging the same old flight plan day-in, day-out with Ibiza-bound chavs OR neoprene-bound oilers is something you only do for the pay-cheque, but there are those amongst us who wake up each day truly looking forward to flying the businessfolk, bobbies or medics to where they can do something useful. I don't want to join a flying club to burn holes in the sky for my own entertainment - I want to carry on doing something that actually helps improve the lot of folk around me (and gives me a tremendous buzz every time we get it right). Equally, I don't want to stop at some arbitrary age point, and I'm not sure I want to give any more financial support to a representative body that chooses not to see that point of view.
Thud_and_Blunder is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 22:48
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 63
Posts: 2,021
T&B et al

BALPA is not trying to stop you flying at age 60, what it is trying to do is to improve safety in the industry (the onshore branch of which could be said to have a relatively poor record of late) by encouraging operations to switch to 2 pilot (safer and creates more jobs), and by recognising that, despite all the age discrimination legislation you can muster, the probability of sudden incapacitation does unfortunately increase as one gets older.

You can of course argue that the cut-off age should be variable according to the individual. This is true but impossible to work out in advance in practice. Some say "I can pass a medical and an OPC so I should be able to continue" but realists know many die or become incapacitated with a current medical, and OPCs are typically so formulaic that an old hand can pass one with eyes closed, regardless of deteriorating real ability.

Whilst it might suit your personal agenda to carry on flying single pilot until you croak in the cockpit and kill your passengers, BALPA considers that this is not good for the wider industry!

HC
HeliComparator is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2007, 22:52
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 65
Contrary to what some might believe, pilots wanting to retire at 60 don't hate their jobs (not the ones that I know, anyway), they just know their limitations and want to end the career with a nice soft landing, followed by retirement and a good enough pension, leaving the scene for someone else who is then fortunate enough to get the same excellent opportunity.

The circle of life... or something like that?
northseaspray is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.