New Robinson R22/R44 Reliability
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New Robinson R22/R44 Reliability
We operate an R22 along with our other corporate aircraft, which does approx 10 - 20 hrs per month training, it's around 18 months old with less than 200 hrs and so far has had,
1. Drive belts need repalacement due to wear <100 hrs
2. Alternator Failure
3. Clutch Failure
4. Faulty Fuel Guages
I have been flying Robinson products on and off for over 10 years but it seems to me that even their new helicopters have reliability issues?
Anyone else had similar complaints?
1. Drive belts need repalacement due to wear <100 hrs
2. Alternator Failure
3. Clutch Failure
4. Faulty Fuel Guages
I have been flying Robinson products on and off for over 10 years but it seems to me that even their new helicopters have reliability issues?
Anyone else had similar complaints?
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Can't speak for R22's, but friends of mine have a number of R44's and they seem fairly solid and reliable with no issues that I can think of.
Re the belts, are you sure that people are shutting down and starting properly, they're not leaving the belts under tension after shutdown, or spinning the engine for too long on startup before engaging the clutch? Failing that bad adjustment, and if you say you've had a clutch fault then could the two be related?
Re the belts, are you sure that people are shutting down and starting properly, they're not leaving the belts under tension after shutdown, or spinning the engine for too long on startup before engaging the clutch? Failing that bad adjustment, and if you say you've had a clutch fault then could the two be related?
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I had a R22 for 2 years and the only problem I had was a voltage regulator failure after about 210 hrs and 18 months.
I have had a R44 II (from new) for over 3 years and 430 hrs and have had no huge issues - the UK dealer recalled the aircraft after 3 weeks service due to a worry about the fuel injector nozzles being loose (they had apparently observed this on another similar aircraft and wanted to check mine). There was no problem with mine 3 weeks later when I trudged up country to collect it but one of the cowls had been dented during the inspection!! No responsibility was accepted and I had the cowl repaired at my own expense. Needless to say I have never and will never return to that workshop again. This was a problem with the Lycoming part of the product of course (and the dealer) and not strictly speaking a Robinson issue.
My tail rotor needed repairing 2 years ago after probably picking up a stone - Robinson turned it around in less than 3 weeks and I also had to have my main rotor blade tips refinished due to the delamination prevention SB 3 months or so ago.
My fixed wing aircraft on the other hand has just had to have its engine sent off to the workshop under warranty at 380hrs TT and 2 years after delivery!
Having owned 4 different types of aircraft previously it seems to me that Robinson do pretty well.
I think you have probably just been unlucky Bladecrack.
SB
I have had a R44 II (from new) for over 3 years and 430 hrs and have had no huge issues - the UK dealer recalled the aircraft after 3 weeks service due to a worry about the fuel injector nozzles being loose (they had apparently observed this on another similar aircraft and wanted to check mine). There was no problem with mine 3 weeks later when I trudged up country to collect it but one of the cowls had been dented during the inspection!! No responsibility was accepted and I had the cowl repaired at my own expense. Needless to say I have never and will never return to that workshop again. This was a problem with the Lycoming part of the product of course (and the dealer) and not strictly speaking a Robinson issue.
My tail rotor needed repairing 2 years ago after probably picking up a stone - Robinson turned it around in less than 3 weeks and I also had to have my main rotor blade tips refinished due to the delamination prevention SB 3 months or so ago.
My fixed wing aircraft on the other hand has just had to have its engine sent off to the workshop under warranty at 380hrs TT and 2 years after delivery!
Having owned 4 different types of aircraft previously it seems to me that Robinson do pretty well.
I think you have probably just been unlucky Bladecrack.
SB
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R44 Clipper II, (2006 model)
310 hours since new,
Engine nose seal replaced at factory before delivery (we were not informed)
Engine nose seal replaced in the field at 85 hours!
Engine nose seal replaced with non standard oversize one at 110 hrs - no problems since!
Fuel pump - 190 hours, no problems
3 starter motors, first failed, replacement motor cracked its case on first start - third appears to be OK now.
Fuel sender 200 hours
All warranty but the labour has been horrific - not warranty.
Not Impressed - we have 2 older ships that have been extremely reliable
98 Astro, Alternator in 650 hours (was the original one), 01 Raven 1 nothing at all in 350 hours. I wonder if there are QC problems at the factory on the newer ships
310 hours since new,
Engine nose seal replaced at factory before delivery (we were not informed)
Engine nose seal replaced in the field at 85 hours!
Engine nose seal replaced with non standard oversize one at 110 hrs - no problems since!
Fuel pump - 190 hours, no problems
3 starter motors, first failed, replacement motor cracked its case on first start - third appears to be OK now.
Fuel sender 200 hours
All warranty but the labour has been horrific - not warranty.
Not Impressed - we have 2 older ships that have been extremely reliable
98 Astro, Alternator in 650 hours (was the original one), 01 Raven 1 nothing at all in 350 hours. I wonder if there are QC problems at the factory on the newer ships
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2005 R22, had replacement T/R gearbox output seal, fuel level sender problem, governor replaced as a little suspect.
All in 550 hours, 18 months, so not too bad, all under warranty.
BW
All in 550 hours, 18 months, so not too bad, all under warranty.
BW
repairs
anti-tork
You have had these problems within 310 hours and repetitive seal and starter problems from manufacture & you are expected to pay?
Ye gods!! no wonder the manufacturers are so caviller with our money, send it back, why are they even asking for money, would you expect this level of Service from your car dealer or a domestic appliance, or any other service organisation
They have got away with poor \ non existent customer service for far to long, & it is not just one company its endemic
You have had these problems within 310 hours and repetitive seal and starter problems from manufacture & you are expected to pay?
Ye gods!! no wonder the manufacturers are so caviller with our money, send it back, why are they even asking for money, would you expect this level of Service from your car dealer or a domestic appliance, or any other service organisation
They have got away with poor \ non existent customer service for far to long, & it is not just one company its endemic
Paint jobs are b@llocks on the new R22's, seen corrosion on most new R44's. Leaky output seals on R22 TRGB's, main blades have paint runs on the trailing edges, I have seen a 2 year old that could do a better job.
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...leaky output seals on R22 TRGB's, main blades have paint runs on the trailing edges, I have seen a 2 year old that could do a better job.
Have you taken the factory tour lately?
Have you taken the factory tour lately?
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R44 reliability
I took delivery of a new Raven 2 in November 2005. Apart from a leaking seal on the MRGB - full marks to Heli Air for getting an engineer to sort it on a Saturday afternoon within an hour of my call - it has been utterly reliable.
I am hugely impressed with the thing and have flown it for nearly 300 hours since I took delivery. I have never hired it out, It has never been used for training.
Apart from a few paint blemishes - bicycle and a misplaced towcart(doh!), plus a bird poo that I didnt wash off quickly enough, leaving a mark on the horiz stab. it looks as good as new ( any tips on touching up the paint? A standard Viper Blue). The factory paint finish was faultless.
A minor niggle ( akin to complaining about the temerature of your coffee at 39000 ft over the Atlantic) is that the bubble windows tend to pull the doors away from the seals - the mehme sahib feels the draught..... I also found out recently that they cause a 5kts speed drop too.
Taking into account the cost of the upgrade I think they should work at getting the doors to remain sealed in the cruise.
If 5kts is important - forget the bubble windows. If you want a really good view, take the doors right off.
Hurrah for the R44. Surely the future of GA??!!
HP
I am hugely impressed with the thing and have flown it for nearly 300 hours since I took delivery. I have never hired it out, It has never been used for training.
Apart from a few paint blemishes - bicycle and a misplaced towcart(doh!), plus a bird poo that I didnt wash off quickly enough, leaving a mark on the horiz stab. it looks as good as new ( any tips on touching up the paint? A standard Viper Blue). The factory paint finish was faultless.
A minor niggle ( akin to complaining about the temerature of your coffee at 39000 ft over the Atlantic) is that the bubble windows tend to pull the doors away from the seals - the mehme sahib feels the draught..... I also found out recently that they cause a 5kts speed drop too.
Taking into account the cost of the upgrade I think they should work at getting the doors to remain sealed in the cruise.
If 5kts is important - forget the bubble windows. If you want a really good view, take the doors right off.
Hurrah for the R44. Surely the future of GA??!!
HP
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500e,
There are many things in our industry that are far far removed from that of, say, the motor vehicle trade.
1. Charging labour for warranty work. They certainly don't at my car garage.
2. Not taking payment before the vehicle is collected. Most car garages wouldn't let you get off the forecourt without paying first!!!
One that gets me time and time again, I am not stereotyping, just speaking from experience. Owners who would never quibble a bill on their Mercedes/Rolls Royce/Aston Martin (delete as appropriate or insert correct manufacturer) and happily pay outrageous hourly rates, but when it comes to their helicopter servicing argue about every £2.50 O-Ring.
AND....they are allowed to fly away in their aircraft and argue about it later, having paid not a penny of the bill!!
I shall decend from my soapbox and await the onslaught!
"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"
There are many things in our industry that are far far removed from that of, say, the motor vehicle trade.
1. Charging labour for warranty work. They certainly don't at my car garage.
2. Not taking payment before the vehicle is collected. Most car garages wouldn't let you get off the forecourt without paying first!!!
One that gets me time and time again, I am not stereotyping, just speaking from experience. Owners who would never quibble a bill on their Mercedes/Rolls Royce/Aston Martin (delete as appropriate or insert correct manufacturer) and happily pay outrageous hourly rates, but when it comes to their helicopter servicing argue about every £2.50 O-Ring.
AND....they are allowed to fly away in their aircraft and argue about it later, having paid not a penny of the bill!!
I shall decend from my soapbox and await the onslaught!
"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"
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Thanks for the replies so far..
The problem with the Robinson "warranty" is that the parts are covered, but not the shipping and labour, which can be a lot more exepensive than the part needing replaced.
I had a friend who picked up a brand new R44 RII to ferry home about 18 months ago and had on the way:
1. MRBG light (returned to airfield, subsequently found to be spurious)
2. TRGB light the next day, when coasting out, precautionary landing made, (gearbox was failing and needed replaced <10 hrs)
3. Rough running engine the day after that, PAN call and diverted.
Some days later he eventually got the helicopter to its new owner....
I remember the Raven I being a fairly solid and reliable machine back when I flew them.
BC.
The problem with the Robinson "warranty" is that the parts are covered, but not the shipping and labour, which can be a lot more exepensive than the part needing replaced.
I had a friend who picked up a brand new R44 RII to ferry home about 18 months ago and had on the way:
1. MRBG light (returned to airfield, subsequently found to be spurious)
2. TRGB light the next day, when coasting out, precautionary landing made, (gearbox was failing and needed replaced <10 hrs)
3. Rough running engine the day after that, PAN call and diverted.
Some days later he eventually got the helicopter to its new owner....
I remember the Raven I being a fairly solid and reliable machine back when I flew them.
BC.
service
helli-eng
Did I mention hourly rates I tend to agree with you regarding the motor trade some are outrageous, but as you say, I have never been asked to pay for warranty parts\shipping or labour .
I have not done a cost analyst's on the overhead of aero, versus motor trade. Premises, + corporate requirements,( No of store men, sales persons, fitters, work bays, Spares holdings,) what colour you paint your site, special tools just delivered & debited to your account with nearly every new model .
I would also say that when we had an interest in the motor trade with high end and vintage cars, the customer certainly perused the bill closely and were not slow to complain
I presume you are an A&P and your hourly rate is somewhere around £40\60
I do not feel that is exorbitant "I am trusting my life to you" but even a hardened A&P must wince at the cost of some parts?
Did I mention hourly rates I tend to agree with you regarding the motor trade some are outrageous, but as you say, I have never been asked to pay for warranty parts\shipping or labour .
I have not done a cost analyst's on the overhead of aero, versus motor trade. Premises, + corporate requirements,( No of store men, sales persons, fitters, work bays, Spares holdings,) what colour you paint your site, special tools just delivered & debited to your account with nearly every new model .
I would also say that when we had an interest in the motor trade with high end and vintage cars, the customer certainly perused the bill closely and were not slow to complain
I presume you are an A&P and your hourly rate is somewhere around £40\60
I do not feel that is exorbitant "I am trusting my life to you" but even a hardened A&P must wince at the cost of some parts?
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500e,
I would absolutely 100% agree with the price of parts, damn I don't envy owners sometimes!!!
From a little bit of research done, we found that the average car mechanic of a comparable level as a licenced engineer was certainly earning more than the licenced engineer, this was a few years back, but I am assuming nothing has significantly changed.
As I said in my previous post, not all owners feel the same way as you, it was not a sweeping generalisation, merely an observation from experience!
I would absolutely 100% agree with the price of parts, damn I don't envy owners sometimes!!!
From a little bit of research done, we found that the average car mechanic of a comparable level as a licenced engineer was certainly earning more than the licenced engineer, this was a few years back, but I am assuming nothing has significantly changed.
As I said in my previous post, not all owners feel the same way as you, it was not a sweeping generalisation, merely an observation from experience!
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Here's our sorry tale:
New R44 (1) as at 330 hrs (1 yr)
New R44 (1) as at 330 hrs (1 yr)
- clutch actuator switch replaced
- Clutch actuator motor and 2nd switch replaced
- Main rotor blade debond
- Hydraulic jack leak and associated damage to MRGB bushes
- Several oil leaks, including crankcase seal
- All spark plugs
- All spark plugs replaced
- New starter motor (twice)
- Replacement manifold pressure gauge
- Crankcase oil leak and seal replacement
Last edited by puntosaurus; 11th Jul 2007 at 19:50.
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Puntosaurus,
Thats a pretty bad run of luck, I think anyone will agree
But your story is typical of the ones I hear more and more form other Robinson operators. The whole blade issue is another story altogether
BC
Thats a pretty bad run of luck, I think anyone will agree
But your story is typical of the ones I hear more and more form other Robinson operators. The whole blade issue is another story altogether
BC
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i have bought enstrom and md product new with warranty and i have never been asked to pay for labour EVER!!! and i wouldnt either
i did think it was against the sale of goods act in the uk to make charges like this
is there any other manufactures that charge for labour?
is there any other manufactures that dont charge for labour ?
on another point
the first r66 has been registered in the usa N466R, c/n 0001 lets see if the poor build continues
i did think it was against the sale of goods act in the uk to make charges like this
is there any other manufactures that charge for labour?
is there any other manufactures that dont charge for labour ?
on another point
the first r66 has been registered in the usa N466R, c/n 0001 lets see if the poor build continues
