EMS Twin heli-which one?
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EMS Twin heli-which one?
Sorry, I know similiar sites were done, but we got to a dead end and here is where we are.
Currently operate AS350B3 Squirrels with full ALS(advance life support) ambo kit(single patient).
Need to expand to twins to include extended night and IF operations. Minimum of 3 heli's required at 3 different stations.
Standard requirements for all 3: twin, single plt IFR, 2 ICU stretchers and 2/3 med crew(at worst 1 ICU, 1 litter patient), 2 pilot, min 3 hours range
Base 1: Full rescue capability in gusting mountain conditions, sea rescue
Base 2: 6000ft, average temp 38 degrees, alt and temp up to 8000ft @ 40 degrees.
Base 3: High humidity, alt up to 6600ft @ 32 degrees, definate 3 hrs + range.
We know we gonna have to compromise somewhere, but need 1 type to ease maintenance, rostering, interchangeability etc.
We have operating cost(manufacturer and 2 independant surveys), purchase price, performance graphs, machine availability for EC135, EC 145/BK 117C1 interim, MD Explorer, Agusta Grand, Bell 412, S-76, AS 365N2 & N3.
MD cheapest but no support here, range, rescue capability.
Agusta-expensive, lead time, cabin size, range
Bell 412- operating cost seem high, downtime?
S76- low rotor massive problem and restricting factor due to running crowds and often terrain.
EC135- 2 patient and crew hot and high not good
It seems it is between the EC145/BK and Dauphin(graphs, range-145 not good, payload after performance reduction for alt/temp). Anybody out there knowing both machines and/or who can shed a different light?
Pls, we are not critisizing any type, just looking at the requirements.
Currently operate AS350B3 Squirrels with full ALS(advance life support) ambo kit(single patient).
Need to expand to twins to include extended night and IF operations. Minimum of 3 heli's required at 3 different stations.
Standard requirements for all 3: twin, single plt IFR, 2 ICU stretchers and 2/3 med crew(at worst 1 ICU, 1 litter patient), 2 pilot, min 3 hours range
Base 1: Full rescue capability in gusting mountain conditions, sea rescue
Base 2: 6000ft, average temp 38 degrees, alt and temp up to 8000ft @ 40 degrees.
Base 3: High humidity, alt up to 6600ft @ 32 degrees, definate 3 hrs + range.
We know we gonna have to compromise somewhere, but need 1 type to ease maintenance, rostering, interchangeability etc.
We have operating cost(manufacturer and 2 independant surveys), purchase price, performance graphs, machine availability for EC135, EC 145/BK 117C1 interim, MD Explorer, Agusta Grand, Bell 412, S-76, AS 365N2 & N3.
MD cheapest but no support here, range, rescue capability.
Agusta-expensive, lead time, cabin size, range
Bell 412- operating cost seem high, downtime?
S76- low rotor massive problem and restricting factor due to running crowds and often terrain.
EC135- 2 patient and crew hot and high not good
It seems it is between the EC145/BK and Dauphin(graphs, range-145 not good, payload after performance reduction for alt/temp). Anybody out there knowing both machines and/or who can shed a different light?
Pls, we are not critisizing any type, just looking at the requirements.
There are no limits
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Dig deep and go for the AW 139. None of the aircraft you have listed will get close to your requirements without serious compromises.
Besides, all in your list are old-tech. Get something nice and new!
Besides, all in your list are old-tech. Get something nice and new!
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I also recommend AW 139 on your operation. AS365N3 is almost what you need, but performance is not in same level than AW 139. Also, strong gusty side winds with fenestron might give you some interesting situations. Needs practice.
Hostile
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Thank you so far.
"what limits", the 139 is not a contender at the moment due to it's price tag, lead time and size. It is just to big to be accommodated on the current helipads.
Pls guys, I have to convince management why any twin(being slightly bigger) can not just take 2 patients in the same circumstances the B3 takes 1.
Difficult to explain the amazingness of the B3 and it's capabilities and performance!!!
AS350B3
"what limits", the 139 is not a contender at the moment due to it's price tag, lead time and size. It is just to big to be accommodated on the current helipads.
Pls guys, I have to convince management why any twin(being slightly bigger) can not just take 2 patients in the same circumstances the B3 takes 1.
Difficult to explain the amazingness of the B3 and it's capabilities and performance!!!
AS350B3
Bell 412- operating cost seem high, downtime?
It can do the job and more. Are you sure the operating cost is that high compared to other helicopters in it´s class.
You mention "downtime?" with question mark. Check thoroughly with other operators. It needs its scheduled maintenanace like the other types and length of downtime depends on your maintenance facility´s capabilities.
Also don´t forget to check out the Bell 429.
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What difference will knowing the country make? The regulations is not an issue as we have to adhere to our clients requirements which is more restricted than the regs.
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HI BRASSEMUP
I did not intend to be rude. In the industry, especially here, people quickly start assuming and then cause havoc. That is why I gave the actual altitudes and average temps instead of location.
Pls, if you have flown various types hot and high, we need desperately to hear from you. The graphs only tell halve the story. We need as much help as we can get before committing and then realising it was a mistake. We are a non-profitable organisation not looking for the cheapest twin, but the one who will enable us to do our work.
One of the reasons we are careful for brand new models not yet fully prooved in extreme conditions, is that we will need reliability and proven performance. That is why we thought of asking the guys/girls who currently fly these models out there.
TKS
I did not intend to be rude. In the industry, especially here, people quickly start assuming and then cause havoc. That is why I gave the actual altitudes and average temps instead of location.
Pls, if you have flown various types hot and high, we need desperately to hear from you. The graphs only tell halve the story. We need as much help as we can get before committing and then realising it was a mistake. We are a non-profitable organisation not looking for the cheapest twin, but the one who will enable us to do our work.
One of the reasons we are careful for brand new models not yet fully prooved in extreme conditions, is that we will need reliability and proven performance. That is why we thought of asking the guys/girls who currently fly these models out there.
TKS
Victor,
You've got a serious set of requirements in your first post. To be honest, I don't think the 109 would fit all that gear and people...especially with a requirement for 3 hrs endurance. I'd say you'll have to go for the 76 or the 412 if you need to get that kind of payload in the machine...don't know whether those machines will go the distance (3hrs). I have to agree that the 139 is probably the perfrect machine but if helipads aren't workable and lead time is a problem (which it is) then your choices are limited.
The real pitty is that the best machine for the job as you've stated it doesn't sound like an option because its costly...you're the poor fella who's got to convince the people with the purse strings that its the best choice...I don't envy you.
Best of luck...let us know how it all works out.
HP
You've got a serious set of requirements in your first post. To be honest, I don't think the 109 would fit all that gear and people...especially with a requirement for 3 hrs endurance. I'd say you'll have to go for the 76 or the 412 if you need to get that kind of payload in the machine...don't know whether those machines will go the distance (3hrs). I have to agree that the 139 is probably the perfrect machine but if helipads aren't workable and lead time is a problem (which it is) then your choices are limited.
The real pitty is that the best machine for the job as you've stated it doesn't sound like an option because its costly...you're the poor fella who's got to convince the people with the purse strings that its the best choice...I don't envy you.
Best of luck...let us know how it all works out.
HP
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Just a thought without much to back it up...what about an EC155? If you get the B model you get the high HP 2C2 engines. It is plenty fast so the range might work out. Five main rotor blades should help at altitude and the bigger than the N3 cabin might be able to fit all your gear and people. Not sure about the purchase price or operating cost but they should be inline with the competion like the S76 etc. I'm sure EC can give you all the specifics but if you need any additional info let me know and I think I might be able to put ou in touch wit a useful resource!
Max
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Morning
Thanks. We can not go bigger than the machines listed. The 412 is a touch and go. The problem with the range is the return flight. Most flights approximately 1 hr to 1.5 to destination. If we do not have close to 3 hrs range, we will have to deploy fuel to all the hospitals which creates problems.
Based on performance only, 2 B3's per site would have been an almost perfect scenario. Unfortunately regulations are forcing us to seek a twin and thus 2 patients/machine. Obviously, we need a safety margin in the machines performance as well. No use we pull max TQ/N1 every take off otherwise we may just as well buy BO105's for next to nothing and operate under the smoke screen of a twin ops.
Thanks. We can not go bigger than the machines listed. The 412 is a touch and go. The problem with the range is the return flight. Most flights approximately 1 hr to 1.5 to destination. If we do not have close to 3 hrs range, we will have to deploy fuel to all the hospitals which creates problems.
Based on performance only, 2 B3's per site would have been an almost perfect scenario. Unfortunately regulations are forcing us to seek a twin and thus 2 patients/machine. Obviously, we need a safety margin in the machines performance as well. No use we pull max TQ/N1 every take off otherwise we may just as well buy BO105's for next to nothing and operate under the smoke screen of a twin ops.
Those numbers you are quoting are a huge ask for any twin. The only difference would be that with an engine failure in either of the aircraft, twin or single, is the crash site might be in a slightly different place.
The answer to your capacity issues with the same performance would probably be an additional B3!
The B3 can operate Night and IFR, the issue is only the regulations. In light of the fact that you are not going to get a twin to match the B3's performance - change the rules!!
If that is not the answer and it appears you have ended up with either EC145 or AS365, talk to the guys at Nucleo Elicotteri Vigili del Fuoco in Trento Italy. Thay have operated eveything from Llamas to K2's to 117C to B2, now B3 and N3. I think you may end up with a combination of B3's and N3's like they have. Horse's for courses!!
Some of the engine parts are the same at least. Are you operating B3+ (2B1 engine).
The answer to your capacity issues with the same performance would probably be an additional B3!
The B3 can operate Night and IFR, the issue is only the regulations. In light of the fact that you are not going to get a twin to match the B3's performance - change the rules!!
If that is not the answer and it appears you have ended up with either EC145 or AS365, talk to the guys at Nucleo Elicotteri Vigili del Fuoco in Trento Italy. Thay have operated eveything from Llamas to K2's to 117C to B2, now B3 and N3. I think you may end up with a combination of B3's and N3's like they have. Horse's for courses!!
Some of the engine parts are the same at least. Are you operating B3+ (2B1 engine).
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Yes we do as well as the older B3. The B3+ operates at Base 2 and do so with flying colours. We have had to take off(with patient onboard) at 2239kg, 6200 ft, 39 degrees and after dropping the patient we did a test flight to confirm that the VEMD does not get stuck at 8.8 on the FLI. She cruised with a smile at 138 knots begging for a "proper" workout.
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SK76B
No problem with hot/high, fast, proven. The lower rotor is not an insurmountable issue.
Lots of S76 EMS cabin options.
Using en-route times is problematic, distances would tell more as the various models get there in different times. Low-level the B will give you 2:20-2:30 endurance. I wouldn't cruise it low for an hour though, and you can then get 3 hours.
No problem with hot/high, fast, proven. The lower rotor is not an insurmountable issue.
Lots of S76 EMS cabin options.
Using en-route times is problematic, distances would tell more as the various models get there in different times. Low-level the B will give you 2:20-2:30 endurance. I wouldn't cruise it low for an hour though, and you can then get 3 hours.
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As was posted before you could possibly go with an additional B3 but if you are required to go twin how about an AS355NP? It is the new twin star with VEMD and upgraded ngines and such (not to be confused with the 355F models which I have heard not much good about). I did a quick look on ECs website and the useful load on the NP is 2447 Lbs compared to 2253 for the B3. It does burn a touch more fuel at 400 lbs/hr over the B3s 347 and it is a touch slower at 122kts vs 127kts at a higher gross weight. I'm not sure about cost but I would bet it is a good bit cheaper than the bigger twins you mentioned. Many of your airframe spares would be the same and transition training for the engineers would be pretty easy. You just wouldn't be able to put 2 patients onboard unless they were siamese twins!
Just a thought
Max
Just a thought
Max
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We had a look at the new 355. Unfortunately the thinking is that if we go twin, the extra expense has to be justified by a second patient. That is what concerns us, because if we choose the wrong twin we will have a lot of explaining to do flying single patient because of limited performance at the altitudes and temps. If we were at lower altitudes and colder temps it would have been a lot easier.
How is the support for the S-76B at the moment or is it not affected by the development and marketing of the C++? Personally I have a good few years on the A++ and C+.
How is the support for the S-76B at the moment or is it not affected by the development and marketing of the C++? Personally I have a good few years on the A++ and C+.
Avoid imitations
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The S-76B, being no longer in production, is a fine machine but support has to be somewhat suspect. Having flown A++ and C for SAR and Casevac and the B and C+ for corporate work, I suggest you find out how long a replacement main gearbox will take to arrive. The big problem I see with the B model is the higher basic weight (how heavy will your internal fit be?) and the higher fuel burn. All things taken into consideration, sadly it might not have the long "legs" you need.