Civilian SAR Aircraft
3D - the first standby would do the ejectee(s) - that is what it is theoretically there for and hence the RS15 - the seconds aircraft is for just about anything but was originally set up to continue the fast jet cover if the 1sts aircraft ended up away from base on a longranger or similar. Practically though, the seconds aircraft comes into its own for major incidents, providing a surge capability and the ability to deal with concurrent Sarops.
At the time of the July bombings (24/7), the RAF SARF generated 12 serviceable and ready to go aircraft and crews within 2 hours - fortunately they were not needed but that was 12 fully SAR capable crews just from the 6 RAF flights. Is anyone else going to provide that capability???????
At the time of the July bombings (24/7), the RAF SARF generated 12 serviceable and ready to go aircraft and crews within 2 hours - fortunately they were not needed but that was 12 fully SAR capable crews just from the 6 RAF flights. Is anyone else going to provide that capability???????
Crab.
Thanks for that, I was already aware of that but maybe some people on here were not.
With respect to your statement of 12 serviceable aircraft within 2hrs on 24/7, you must be saying then that your six bases are not always capable of providing a second standby/ crews??
Thanks for that, I was already aware of that but maybe some people on here were not.
With respect to your statement of 12 serviceable aircraft within 2hrs on 24/7, you must be saying then that your six bases are not always capable of providing a second standby/ crews??
3D - we are always (except in exceptional circumstances) able to provide 2nd standby crews but it is sometimes the serviceability of the dear old Sea Queen that lets us down on the aircraft front. 24/7 just came at a time when all the SK fleet was 'S'.
The main difference in surge capability between civvy and military SAR (or anything for that matter) is that if you want military guys to do more work you just tell them to - with civilian ops you have to ask nicely and pay them more
Sadly , you guys have probably got it right
The main difference in surge capability between civvy and military SAR (or anything for that matter) is that if you want military guys to do more work you just tell them to - with civilian ops you have to ask nicely and pay them more
Sadly , you guys have probably got it right
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At the time of the July bombings (24/7), the RAF SARF generated 12 serviceable and ready to go aircraft and crews within 2 hours - fortunately they were not needed but that was 12 fully SAR capable crews just from the 6 RAF flights. Is anyone else going to provide that capability???????
My question would have to be, how do we know that we are not overprovisioned today in terms of military 2nd standby?
Max, we don't but history has proved the worth of the second standby. Until you get a major incident you don't know what you need.
The Greyrigg (Cumbria) accident is a suitable case to examine for appropriate emergency response - the actual number injured (and one fatality sadly) was very low but the emergency response was huge, assuming that a train with up to 200 people leaving the tracks at 95 mph would produce carnage on a fairly major scale.
No-one has suggested cutting police fire and ambulance crews in the area because they weren't needed.
So, do you plan for the contingency or hope it never happens - over to you Govt....
The Greyrigg (Cumbria) accident is a suitable case to examine for appropriate emergency response - the actual number injured (and one fatality sadly) was very low but the emergency response was huge, assuming that a train with up to 200 people leaving the tracks at 95 mph would produce carnage on a fairly major scale.
No-one has suggested cutting police fire and ambulance crews in the area because they weren't needed.
So, do you plan for the contingency or hope it never happens - over to you Govt....
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I think we are going to loose that one.
We have had plenty of major incidents over the years and the most SAR helicopters (mil and civ) we have had airborne at one time was 8.
If you look at the amount of times that a military 2nd standby aircraft is brought up from RS60 to RS15 and then tasked to SAR, its about once a year (all of the other 2nds tasking occurs on training flights or mountain dets etc)
And, given that SAR flights are about an hours flying time apart from each other, any major incident needs to have 4 aircraft or more before a mil 2nd standby even comes into the orbat.
I think that the time has come to acknowledge that the prime purpose of our 2nd standby aircraft is to prop up the availability of the 1st cab.
SAR-H have done the maths and decided that they don't need a 2nd standby crew in the future. Just a thought, but rather than drip about it surely we should use that as a reason to drop 2nd standby today and ease a bit of the pressure around our manning and shift plots?
Vote here.
We have had plenty of major incidents over the years and the most SAR helicopters (mil and civ) we have had airborne at one time was 8.
If you look at the amount of times that a military 2nd standby aircraft is brought up from RS60 to RS15 and then tasked to SAR, its about once a year (all of the other 2nds tasking occurs on training flights or mountain dets etc)
And, given that SAR flights are about an hours flying time apart from each other, any major incident needs to have 4 aircraft or more before a mil 2nd standby even comes into the orbat.
I think that the time has come to acknowledge that the prime purpose of our 2nd standby aircraft is to prop up the availability of the 1st cab.
SAR-H have done the maths and decided that they don't need a 2nd standby crew in the future. Just a thought, but rather than drip about it surely we should use that as a reason to drop 2nd standby today and ease a bit of the pressure around our manning and shift plots?
Vote here.
Of course the government will go for only one SAR cab on standby at each location - it is cheaper and allows money to be spent on more PC projects
Max - SAR must have changed since my time (left in 1990) but it was a regular occurrence to be called in for a "seconds" job especially in the summer.
On one occasion at Brawdy, for the Air India 747 off Cork, we generated 3 cabs and crews (we had the OCU a/c in the hangar as they were on summer break at Culdrose). The 3rd crew had a pilot as winchman as he had been a crewman in a previous life. (hi TG).
For the Piper Alpha disaster I was generated from home at 2230 and was airborne within 30mins. The Piper disaster was a classic example of how different assets should be used. Winch equipped a/c searched for and recovered survivors to the Tharos flotel while non-winch equipped a/c took them onward to Aberdeen. A Nimrod ran the show from Flt Level very high.
A Crab says the military have a surge capability, which is very useful in a disaster, and it will be a shame to loose that.
HF
Max - SAR must have changed since my time (left in 1990) but it was a regular occurrence to be called in for a "seconds" job especially in the summer.
On one occasion at Brawdy, for the Air India 747 off Cork, we generated 3 cabs and crews (we had the OCU a/c in the hangar as they were on summer break at Culdrose). The 3rd crew had a pilot as winchman as he had been a crewman in a previous life. (hi TG).
For the Piper Alpha disaster I was generated from home at 2230 and was airborne within 30mins. The Piper disaster was a classic example of how different assets should be used. Winch equipped a/c searched for and recovered survivors to the Tharos flotel while non-winch equipped a/c took them onward to Aberdeen. A Nimrod ran the show from Flt Level very high.
A Crab says the military have a surge capability, which is very useful in a disaster, and it will be a shame to loose that.
HF
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2 Aircraft
Cruise Ship Canberra ran out of fuel 2 miles off the Isle of Wight in a force 8 at 0130 hrs. Over 2000 persons on board.
The CIVIL SAR at Lee on Solent had 2 aircraft fully manned and ready to go in 30 mins.
The CIVIL SAR at Lee on Solent had 2 aircraft fully manned and ready to go in 30 mins.
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Cruise Ship Canberra ran out of fuel 2 miles off the Isle of Wight in a force 8 at 0130 hrs. Over 2000 persons on board.
The CIVIL SAR at Lee on Solent had 2 aircraft fully manned and ready to go in 30 mins.
The CIVIL SAR at Lee on Solent had 2 aircraft fully manned and ready to go in 30 mins.
Firstly, an undeclared capability is nice but no one can plan around it.
Secondly, two S61s (or Sea Kings) are a 'Tick on the arse of the Rhinoceros' when it comes to evacuating a cruise ship in a hurry.
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Max Con,
Lets face it, any helicopter is a mere gnat on the backside......
Crab,
All this psoturing and providing information for journos is a waste of time. SAR-H obviously have a view of the huge picture we will never see. I hope they have managed to get the right people in place who can make decisions based on front line experience. But nothing here is going to make a jot of difference. Journos might be reading, but information provided anonomously on a rumour network is of no use to them what so ever.
The capability of future SAR will depend on what the DofT want and what they are prepared to pay for. There is no reason why the civies can't provide what the military do today and do it better tomorrow. By the same token, if the MOD threw more money at Mil SAR they would be better too.
Its all down to money and that means we have to rely on Politicans. May the Lord help us.
Lets face it, any helicopter is a mere gnat on the backside......
Crab,
All this psoturing and providing information for journos is a waste of time. SAR-H obviously have a view of the huge picture we will never see. I hope they have managed to get the right people in place who can make decisions based on front line experience. But nothing here is going to make a jot of difference. Journos might be reading, but information provided anonomously on a rumour network is of no use to them what so ever.
The capability of future SAR will depend on what the DofT want and what they are prepared to pay for. There is no reason why the civies can't provide what the military do today and do it better tomorrow. By the same token, if the MOD threw more money at Mil SAR they would be better too.
Its all down to money and that means we have to rely on Politicans. May the Lord help us.
Droopy - SARH have to play the hand they are dealt - unless the Govt decide they want the capability to provide surge/concurrent ops then it won't happen. Equally, unless the military decide they want to maintain a bigger presence in SAR than 66 then that is what we will be stuck with.
Regardless of the manpower, the funding is still split between the home office and the MoD, with the MoD paying most (which seems rather outrageous) so nothing will come off the Defence budget anyway.
Max - as soon as you drop seconds, people will be posted to the SH force, everyone's manning is in tatters and their pull will be greater than ours.
If you only have one cab at each location then you would need just about all the SAR assets to give 8 aircraft and you wouldn't achieve that in less than 4 - 5 hours. With seconds you only need half the UK assets and olny from the nearest locations - a far better response that wouldn't denude the rest of the UK of SAR cover.
Surge and concurrency - the need won't go away as much as bean counters would like to think it will.
Regardless of the manpower, the funding is still split between the home office and the MoD, with the MoD paying most (which seems rather outrageous) so nothing will come off the Defence budget anyway.
Max - as soon as you drop seconds, people will be posted to the SH force, everyone's manning is in tatters and their pull will be greater than ours.
If you only have one cab at each location then you would need just about all the SAR assets to give 8 aircraft and you wouldn't achieve that in less than 4 - 5 hours. With seconds you only need half the UK assets and olny from the nearest locations - a far better response that wouldn't denude the rest of the UK of SAR cover.
Surge and concurrency - the need won't go away as much as bean counters would like to think it will.
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Sar-h Meeting
SAR-H anybody? follow the link to recent gathering at a base near CRAB?
it's all going to happen one way or another so hold on for the ride
http://www.shephard.co.uk/rotorhub/D...8-fdcda38dc037
it's all going to happen one way or another so hold on for the ride
http://www.shephard.co.uk/rotorhub/D...8-fdcda38dc037
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Sorry - a bit late in the day, but a few comments on this thread.
Re Nitesun 2 on S92 - great bit of kit if you can link it to the TI camera, as it will keep station on the target much better than trying it manually . . . which is far too sensitive (in our machine anyway) for effective pilot control. You also have to hope you've got the new, improved, gimbal or you may well spend a deal of time with the thing removed, when it goes wrong - then you'll be glad of all those other lights!
Re TETRA radios - (concur with Helinut #52 & #58, Sven62 #56 take note) - we have 4 TETRA radios, analogue radio for CG and two ATC VHF, so can talk to anyone when the TETRA stays on-line, including ringing land & mobile phones from the a/c. However . . . TETRA is NOT the answer to anyone's prayers (due to its habit of dropping out or making a transmission sound like a Dalek) and the only current effective & efficient method of co-ordinating Police & SAR a/c is the use of pilot-to-pilot scene-of-SAR or other VHF freq!!
Re MET Police winches - I believe I'm correct in noting that they only actually have ONE winch for fitting to any of their three a/c. As yet they may be undecided as to how they'll (be allowed to) use it, but probably easier to have one on the shelf for when it's approved, than to retro-fit . . especially considering the tiny fraction of the £15m or so total purchase!
Re Regionalisation of Police etc, Helinut (#52) should watch Essex - currently operating 3 a/c for 3 forces at 3 bases under one PAOC, with the full support of Chief Officers. Groundbreaking stuff, being closely monitored by CAA & HO - but it's working.
And finally . . . concur with Mustfly (#90) & others about gnats on elephants etc - the latest Freedom Class cruise ships, twice the size of the lady Canberra, have over 5000 POB!
Re Nitesun 2 on S92 - great bit of kit if you can link it to the TI camera, as it will keep station on the target much better than trying it manually . . . which is far too sensitive (in our machine anyway) for effective pilot control. You also have to hope you've got the new, improved, gimbal or you may well spend a deal of time with the thing removed, when it goes wrong - then you'll be glad of all those other lights!
Re TETRA radios - (concur with Helinut #52 & #58, Sven62 #56 take note) - we have 4 TETRA radios, analogue radio for CG and two ATC VHF, so can talk to anyone when the TETRA stays on-line, including ringing land & mobile phones from the a/c. However . . . TETRA is NOT the answer to anyone's prayers (due to its habit of dropping out or making a transmission sound like a Dalek) and the only current effective & efficient method of co-ordinating Police & SAR a/c is the use of pilot-to-pilot scene-of-SAR or other VHF freq!!
Re MET Police winches - I believe I'm correct in noting that they only actually have ONE winch for fitting to any of their three a/c. As yet they may be undecided as to how they'll (be allowed to) use it, but probably easier to have one on the shelf for when it's approved, than to retro-fit . . especially considering the tiny fraction of the £15m or so total purchase!
Re Regionalisation of Police etc, Helinut (#52) should watch Essex - currently operating 3 a/c for 3 forces at 3 bases under one PAOC, with the full support of Chief Officers. Groundbreaking stuff, being closely monitored by CAA & HO - but it's working.
And finally . . . concur with Mustfly (#90) & others about gnats on elephants etc - the latest Freedom Class cruise ships, twice the size of the lady Canberra, have over 5000 POB!
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Regionalisation
Quote Zorab: "Re Regionalisation of Police etc, Helinut (#52) should watch Essex - currently operating 3 a/c for 3 forces at 3 bases under one PAOC, with the full support of Chief Officers. Groundbreaking stuff, being closely monitored by CAA & HO - but it's working."
Several forces have been doing it successfully and for longer with closer co-operation/integration (swapping of aircrafte etc) - see Chiltern. However this is not enough lets hope the HO gets regionalisation and or nationalisation sorted, with proper inclusion in the ARCC system. That is my real point for this thread. Why not get the police winch trained. Central counties had to rescue flood victims by landing on rooves! Can't remember the year but know the pilot and Sergeant who did it. Surely a winch would have been safer.
Several forces have been doing it successfully and for longer with closer co-operation/integration (swapping of aircrafte etc) - see Chiltern. However this is not enough lets hope the HO gets regionalisation and or nationalisation sorted, with proper inclusion in the ARCC system. That is my real point for this thread. Why not get the police winch trained. Central counties had to rescue flood victims by landing on rooves! Can't remember the year but know the pilot and Sergeant who did it. Surely a winch would have been safer.
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I have, a long time ago in a sophisticated first world country far away, watched a Police helo with a crew untrained in such operations engage in flood relief using a long line on a hoist bracket.
On the second lift they dropped the survivor from about 120 feet.
On the second lift they dropped the survivor from about 120 feet.
Why not get the police winch trained. Central counties had to rescue flood victims by landing on rooves! Can't remember the year but know the pilot and Sergeant who did it. Surely a winch would have been safer.
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Torque of the Devil and SARCO, you both have good points.
The police forces provide mutual aid to each other. When a helicopter goes "cross border", it's use will be charged for. I guess they, wrongly, apply that thinking to SAR aircraft.
Torque of the Devil, I do not know the urgency of the lift in question, but imagine it must have been high to warrant that sort of risk. I think the incident happened in Worcestershire; where would the nearest SAR aircraft come from and how soon would it have been on scene? I assume either Valley or Chivenor at alert 15 day time?
The police forces provide mutual aid to each other. When a helicopter goes "cross border", it's use will be charged for. I guess they, wrongly, apply that thinking to SAR aircraft.
Torque of the Devil, I do not know the urgency of the lift in question, but imagine it must have been high to warrant that sort of risk. I think the incident happened in Worcestershire; where would the nearest SAR aircraft come from and how soon would it have been on scene? I assume either Valley or Chivenor at alert 15 day time?
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Merlin?
Totally different thought within this thread:-
If the military remained involved after SAR(H), what about the use of Merlin as a SAR asset?
I love the Sea King dearly but it will have to go the way of the Wessex sooner or later.
Could it be used as the only platform, both Military and Civilian?
If the military remained involved after SAR(H), what about the use of Merlin as a SAR asset?
I love the Sea King dearly but it will have to go the way of the Wessex sooner or later.
Could it be used as the only platform, both Military and Civilian?
Torquesplit - the Merlin would be good for long-range stuff but has too powerful a downwash for use on cliffs, mountains, small vessels and in urban scenarios. The stock answer to this is to say 'hover higher' but it does little to alleviate the problem and just takes the pilot even further away from his hover references. The Canadians had to revisit their SOPs and had some interesting problems with downwash at some of their HLS. The winch installation combined with the hover attitude makes winching less than ideal. The Wessex and Sea King were good SAR platforms because they offered stable, easy winching with big cabin doors and manageable downwash due to relatively low disc loading.
It is difficult to envisage a one size fits all future SAR aircraft (although that is what we have had for a while now) and most of the SAR H bidders are offering two different aircraft, one for long range/offshore and a smaller one for coastal inland use.
It is difficult to envisage a one size fits all future SAR aircraft (although that is what we have had for a while now) and most of the SAR H bidders are offering two different aircraft, one for long range/offshore and a smaller one for coastal inland use.