Civilian SAR Aircraft
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The customer is always right(?).
Ideally, the Nitesun would sit where the FLIR is mounted but instead will have to take the next best position available according to the mfg and customer's wants. A Sikorsky marketing type once told me that they first would put any device, including a popcorn machine, where they thought it best for the customer but in the end, "Would put whatever the customer wants, where he wants it."
Avoid imitations
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UL,
Thanks for the explanation about Nightsun ops, but after 20 years of flying aircraft fitted with it and teaching it's use to others on four different types of helicopter, I do already know it gets hot and might get broken. However, if the beam can't reach the field of view of the pilot, it's not much use. This is the case on two Sikorsky types that I have operated and I asked a genuine question, based on operational experience.
As regarding reading posts properly, chilling out, time taken to vent spleen etc; I suggest you do the same, your reply was a lot longer than mine.
Thanks for the explanation about Nightsun ops, but after 20 years of flying aircraft fitted with it and teaching it's use to others on four different types of helicopter, I do already know it gets hot and might get broken. However, if the beam can't reach the field of view of the pilot, it's not much use. This is the case on two Sikorsky types that I have operated and I asked a genuine question, based on operational experience.
As regarding reading posts properly, chilling out, time taken to vent spleen etc; I suggest you do the same, your reply was a lot longer than mine.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Regarding the Nitesun,
the PoAF Merlin has the Nitesun on the starbord side, meaning, on the pilot's side, and we have the ability to give control of the beam to the systems operator, who puts his head out the bubble window, and just follows the pilot's directions. It's the best compromise we could find. Having the non-flying pilot operate it is near to impossible, and having it on the opposite side of the flying pilot doesn't sound like a good idea to me...
the PoAF Merlin has the Nitesun on the starbord side, meaning, on the pilot's side, and we have the ability to give control of the beam to the systems operator, who puts his head out the bubble window, and just follows the pilot's directions. It's the best compromise we could find. Having the non-flying pilot operate it is near to impossible, and having it on the opposite side of the flying pilot doesn't sound like a good idea to me...
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pinho,
Exactly my point, thanks.
I was also used to operating Nightsun myself whilst flying the aircraft. It's safer that way if using it for SAR work.The light is so bright that in very dark conditions, objects illuminated by it can become the only visual cues for the pilot to hover by. Having another crew member suddenly move it away from the pilot's field of view with no warning can leave him with no visual reference and no night vision. It once happened to me having winched off a boat one very dark night - the Winch Op inexplicably moved the Nightsun in the transition at 50 feet over the sea and then switched it off. The sudden movement gave me the impression the aircraft was rapidly spinning, followed by complete darkness and no visible horizon. I think we were lucky not to hit the water.
Exactly my point, thanks.
I was also used to operating Nightsun myself whilst flying the aircraft. It's safer that way if using it for SAR work.The light is so bright that in very dark conditions, objects illuminated by it can become the only visual cues for the pilot to hover by. Having another crew member suddenly move it away from the pilot's field of view with no warning can leave him with no visual reference and no night vision. It once happened to me having winched off a boat one very dark night - the Winch Op inexplicably moved the Nightsun in the transition at 50 feet over the sea and then switched it off. The sudden movement gave me the impression the aircraft was rapidly spinning, followed by complete darkness and no visible horizon. I think we were lucky not to hit the water.
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Shytorque,
we are operational for one year now, and we are still learning and adjusting procedures. We currently don't use the Nitesun for winching Ops as a standard procedure, we use the landing lights. I suppose the first operational pilots just applied what they did in the Pumas, but it doesn't make much sense to have Nitesun and not to use it in winching Ops at night. You have a very good point about the heat coming out of the beam, and as a matter of fact I'll talk about this in the Squadron tomorrow.
we are operational for one year now, and we are still learning and adjusting procedures. We currently don't use the Nitesun for winching Ops as a standard procedure, we use the landing lights. I suppose the first operational pilots just applied what they did in the Pumas, but it doesn't make much sense to have Nitesun and not to use it in winching Ops at night. You have a very good point about the heat coming out of the beam, and as a matter of fact I'll talk about this in the Squadron tomorrow.
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SAR Harmonisation
Good to see so much activity on the string.
I use the Night Sun II on a smaller platform, and we have keep out arcs programmed in to prevent burning. Does that not happen in the 92/101?
How many 92's is CHC buying and are they new? How long is the CHC contract?
Does anyone out there know anything about SAR harmonisation in the UK?
I use the Night Sun II on a smaller platform, and we have keep out arcs programmed in to prevent burning. Does that not happen in the 92/101?
How many 92's is CHC buying and are they new? How long is the CHC contract?
Does anyone out there know anything about SAR harmonisation in the UK?
Lighting
There are two fixed landing lights in the nose and one standard swivel landing/searchlight below about theRH pilot's feet. In addition for SAR there are two fixed floods below the fuselage pointing down, plus a spotlight mounted on the hoist bracket and controllable by the winch operator. There are also two white "logo" lights, one either side of the IGB fairing, pointing up at the tail rotor.
Steve oc, thanks, that what was I was after - sounds like someone got the design right first time. The logo lights are a top idea for illuminating the TR without having to use the hoist light like we do.
I guess the nitesun would be useful if your hover references are a long way off but our landing lamps and hover floods seem to be adequate for most winching scenarios.
I guess the nitesun would be useful if your hover references are a long way off but our landing lamps and hover floods seem to be adequate for most winching scenarios.
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Exactly the same as we have found in Portugal with the Merlin, use of the Nitesun during winching Ops is difficult, because:
1. The captain is flying the a/c
2. The co-pilot is maintaining his/her eyes on the instruments, ready to take over the flight commands if the pilot gets spacial desorientation
3. The systems operator is busy working the winch
No one left to operate the thing, it's easier if the flying pilot uses his landing lamp to illuminate his visual references on the vessel...
1. The captain is flying the a/c
2. The co-pilot is maintaining his/her eyes on the instruments, ready to take over the flight commands if the pilot gets spacial desorientation
3. The systems operator is busy working the winch
No one left to operate the thing, it's easier if the flying pilot uses his landing lamp to illuminate his visual references on the vessel...
Which is complete waste of time and more dangerous than not having NVG at all. This was tried in the early days of NVG - the person who needs to use goggles is the one who needs to see where he is going - ie the one flying the aircraft.
I am sure that eventually the contract will include full NVG ops, it just requires a change of attitude from regulators and penny-pinchers.
I am sure that eventually the contract will include full NVG ops, it just requires a change of attitude from regulators and penny-pinchers.
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I was just wondering how then does the non-flying crew cope with NVG's with the lightings provided by the nice aircraft. I would guess that they will just de-goggle then.
I fully agree with what Crab has said.
I would assume that the 92's interior lightings are NVG compatible to cater for the eventual full NVG ops. Also, provisions for IR landing lights too.
I fully agree with what Crab has said.
I would assume that the 92's interior lightings are NVG compatible to cater for the eventual full NVG ops. Also, provisions for IR landing lights too.
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Better name for the S-92
Is it me or does it look like a Basset Hound?
Actually all it needs is big eye lashes - a lady basset hound Shy Torque!..... think I have been out here too long!
Not in UK at present!
look up google images basset hound I tell you I bet the designer has one as a pet!
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, ENTERING STAGE LEFT
The new CG Basset Hound. low slung Cute nose! Sniffs out survivors throughout the UK.
Ok I'll go to bed and sober up! Bye.
Actually all it needs is big eye lashes - a lady basset hound Shy Torque!..... think I have been out here too long!
Not in UK at present!
look up google images basset hound I tell you I bet the designer has one as a pet!
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, ENTERING STAGE LEFT
The new CG Basset Hound. low slung Cute nose! Sniffs out survivors throughout the UK.
Ok I'll go to bed and sober up! Bye.
However - since the phrase 'no less capability' which was trumpeted by SAR H as a guarantee of quality now seems up for 'interpretation' and discussion - we do still run the risk of getting royally scr*w*d and losing capability to the bean counters.
Add to this that the Police, who have primacy for overland SAR (which accounts for 51% of our SARops), have not been included in any dialogue or any stage of the SAR H process!
Then factor in the lack of surge/concurrent ops plans other than some braod brush and meaningless platitudes. All of the major incidents in the last 20 years have required the use of the second standby aircraft and crews from both RN and RAF SAR flights.
Then consider the ridiculous notion that 66 military aircrew will be a sustainable number to man the Falklands, provide SAR cover at 1 or 2 flts and give up 15 people a year back to the SH force (how many do they think will do a tour SAR and leave for the CG jobs?) plus providing manpower for the ARCC (or son of), SARTU (or son of) training, standards management etc etc etc.
Now if this sound like I am having a go at SAR H then I must say in their defence that they have had to play the hand they have been dealt, especially with military manning and only intervention from the highest levels in MoD will change this.
Oh and by the way, military crews have a lower capitation rate (salary plus pension) than the pay scales presently existing in the civil sector for SAR.
The new S92's and 139s are sexy machines but they cannot match the present capability of the Mk3 and 3A Sea Kings for SAR (esp night and IMC),so much work will need to be done before the new contract is let.
So will SAR H work, I hope so but I am not holding my breath.......
The cabinet office needs to get a grip of the whole shebang and devise a policy for SAR/aid to the civilian community/ resilience ops etc and include the Police and Air ambulance and Fire service community or we will get to 2012 and still have a fragmented, disorganised, patchily funded and poorly legislated SAR/EMS setup.
The police in Sheffield were somewhat delighted when a SAR winchman wandered into their Gold control room to act as liaison 'Thank God - someone who speaks helicopter". They gave him a radio (and stole his map
) and he ran the tasking for 3 Sea Kings - what would have happened without him? The police had no idea of the capabilities of the helicopters were and had never trained to use them. Joined up response? I don't think so.
Add to this that the Police, who have primacy for overland SAR (which accounts for 51% of our SARops), have not been included in any dialogue or any stage of the SAR H process!
Then factor in the lack of surge/concurrent ops plans other than some braod brush and meaningless platitudes. All of the major incidents in the last 20 years have required the use of the second standby aircraft and crews from both RN and RAF SAR flights.
Then consider the ridiculous notion that 66 military aircrew will be a sustainable number to man the Falklands, provide SAR cover at 1 or 2 flts and give up 15 people a year back to the SH force (how many do they think will do a tour SAR and leave for the CG jobs?) plus providing manpower for the ARCC (or son of), SARTU (or son of) training, standards management etc etc etc.
Now if this sound like I am having a go at SAR H then I must say in their defence that they have had to play the hand they have been dealt, especially with military manning and only intervention from the highest levels in MoD will change this.
Oh and by the way, military crews have a lower capitation rate (salary plus pension) than the pay scales presently existing in the civil sector for SAR.
The new S92's and 139s are sexy machines but they cannot match the present capability of the Mk3 and 3A Sea Kings for SAR (esp night and IMC),so much work will need to be done before the new contract is let.
So will SAR H work, I hope so but I am not holding my breath.......
The cabinet office needs to get a grip of the whole shebang and devise a policy for SAR/aid to the civilian community/ resilience ops etc and include the Police and Air ambulance and Fire service community or we will get to 2012 and still have a fragmented, disorganised, patchily funded and poorly legislated SAR/EMS setup.
The police in Sheffield were somewhat delighted when a SAR winchman wandered into their Gold control room to act as liaison 'Thank God - someone who speaks helicopter". They gave him a radio (and stole his map
) and he ran the tasking for 3 Sea Kings - what would have happened without him? The police had no idea of the capabilities of the helicopters were and had never trained to use them. Joined up response? I don't think so.
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You know something Crab, you are right. I'm not being sarcastic or anything you have really valid points there, you are correct about inland primacy the so-called 'Polsa' who requires a radio to talk to the a/c. I may be sticking my head above the parapet here but maybe there is a valid reason for the police not being involved. Perhaps inland SAR will be handed over to the agencies that can actually be effective the MOD and MCA.
Who knows
Who knows
Last edited by SARCO; 30th Jun 2007 at 20:13.
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The police in Sheffield were somewhat delighted when a SAR winchman wandered into their Gold control room to act as liaison 'Thank God - someone who speaks helicopter". They gave him a radio (and stole his map) and he ran the tasking for 3 Sea Kings - what would have happened without him? The police had no idea of the capabilities of the helicopters were and had never trained to use them. Joined up response? I don't think so.
As for the capability of the S92/139, let's wait and see. Please don't start
