Best Auto Distance
Helimut or whatever you call yourself.....who is John ? If by any chance you are referring to me i think you will find that a LOT of owners and operators agree with me re EOL,s but they are the ones paying the bills. I assume you either do not own your own and therefore dont pay the insurance ( or have a robbo ...so dont bother !!)
ps I possibly had my cpl and cfi before you could climb over the skids .........and possibly even a real life engine failure before you did yr ppl
however i totally agree that the No1 point is to actually get into auto without rotor speed loss etc the last 10 ft is the least important .
I also agree that a poor auto to a good spot is worse than a good auto to a poor spot.
ps I possibly had my cpl and cfi before you could climb over the skids .........and possibly even a real life engine failure before you did yr ppl
however i totally agree that the No1 point is to actually get into auto without rotor speed loss etc the last 10 ft is the least important .I also agree that a poor auto to a good spot is worse than a good auto to a poor spot.
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NigelH,
In his abscence I'll clarify for Helimutt..............
You aren't the John referred to (If your name is John
). The main focus of helimutts lengthier reply is fairly obvious. Et voila 
Standby for incoming from Robbo owners upset at your generalisation
Time I left me thinks
In his abscence I'll clarify for Helimutt..............
You aren't the John referred to (If your name is John
). The main focus of helimutts lengthier reply is fairly obvious. Et voila Standby for incoming from Robbo owners upset at your generalisation
Time I left me thinks
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The best and most spectacular auto I ever did in a 206 was on a PFL initiated just as we were leaving a pinnacle at about 9 500 feet in the PNG highlands. At min ROD airspeed (60 kts) I was in auto for about 1 1/2 minutes at about 200 feet above ground level. Nice long slope!
ps I possibly had my cpl and cfi before you could climb over the skids .........and possibly even a real life engine failure before you did yr ppl
nigelh, I would have thought your name was Nigel, not John? Never mind. My previous post was directed at someone else, (not hard to figure out who). The person in question professes to know all, but knows little. He's only a PPL holder and has often told some untruths on this forum. As for yourself Nigelh, I gathered you maybe own a helicopter (or two), are much older than myself, and yes, I happen to agree with you on EOL's and the pointless destruction of helis carrying out certain training excercises.
Not good for insurance, eh?
Oh well, what is it with some people. Insecurity?
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Flingingwings
Not sure where you get that statistic from but if that is the case it is a very poor reflection on the standard of flying and more to the point the standard of instruction received in the first place.
Don't know much about the robo but used to instruct on the Enstrom & B206. The students would have to consistently be able to demonstrate a level of proficiency to carry out a full touch down auto to a defined area before they would be presented for test. The same would apply once qualified before being able to self fly hire.
Would agree that with a less forgiving A/C a power recovery is the more sensible option. However the flare and control of NR and the subsequent ruduction in flare for the touch down is still valid albeit at 10ft with the engine responding.
The reality is that in a real auto 99.9% would mess up the flare and do the aircraft some damage.
Don't know much about the robo but used to instruct on the Enstrom & B206. The students would have to consistently be able to demonstrate a level of proficiency to carry out a full touch down auto to a defined area before they would be presented for test. The same would apply once qualified before being able to self fly hire.
Would agree that with a less forgiving A/C a power recovery is the more sensible option. However the flare and control of NR and the subsequent ruduction in flare for the touch down is still valid albeit at 10ft with the engine responding.
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Lenticular,
Wasn't a guaranteed statistic, more a generalisation to add to the throttle management during auto's for PPL's discussion.
In the run up to PPL test I've no doubt most students are proficient. Six months + down the line though? Know of plently of ppl(h) holders who aside from the mandatory annual revalidation take no additional training each year. Reckon they'll manage a perfect auto with no damage?
Even when I did my FI test the CAA examiner had his hands following the controls. I'm aware of more than one AAIB report detailing demonstrated full down autos conducted by instructors that have gone wrong. There is also a marked difference between training and actual. Training you have an instructor beside you. For real you have the added fear factor where in some cases all logic can go out the window.If a CPL can get lost flying to Epsom and Ascot why do you feel a ppl will be guaranteed to make a perfect auto? I don't have specifics to hand but i recall the Robbo driver who suffered a failure on the eng tach (no other probs). He entered auto (desite there being no other signs of an engine failure) auto'd into a field and fluffed the flare. As I said - For me a good auto entry is essential as is landing site selection (and defensive flying in the first place). A good attempt at the flare is nice but anything close will make the incident probably survivable. If you only do five or six a year I don't think thats an unrealistic expectation.
I don't teach anymore and haven't flown a Robbo for nearly 18 months. Could guarantee i'd enter auto and pick a field perfectly. Given the differences between my current ratings and an R22 would I make a good attempt at the flare etc. Yup. would I GUARANTEE no damage? Nope.
It's not a reflection on training standards per se, some schools and instructors are better than others ( and the same is true of some ppl's). More an indication that many (NOT ALL) shun recurrency training and view the LPC as a nuisance. That and the personal belief that the brevity of some LPCs is insufficient in some cases.
Wasn't a guaranteed statistic, more a generalisation to add to the throttle management during auto's for PPL's discussion.
In the run up to PPL test I've no doubt most students are proficient. Six months + down the line though? Know of plently of ppl(h) holders who aside from the mandatory annual revalidation take no additional training each year. Reckon they'll manage a perfect auto with no damage?
Even when I did my FI test the CAA examiner had his hands following the controls. I'm aware of more than one AAIB report detailing demonstrated full down autos conducted by instructors that have gone wrong. There is also a marked difference between training and actual. Training you have an instructor beside you. For real you have the added fear factor where in some cases all logic can go out the window.If a CPL can get lost flying to Epsom and Ascot why do you feel a ppl will be guaranteed to make a perfect auto? I don't have specifics to hand but i recall the Robbo driver who suffered a failure on the eng tach (no other probs). He entered auto (desite there being no other signs of an engine failure) auto'd into a field and fluffed the flare. As I said - For me a good auto entry is essential as is landing site selection (and defensive flying in the first place). A good attempt at the flare is nice but anything close will make the incident probably survivable. If you only do five or six a year I don't think thats an unrealistic expectation.
I don't teach anymore and haven't flown a Robbo for nearly 18 months. Could guarantee i'd enter auto and pick a field perfectly. Given the differences between my current ratings and an R22 would I make a good attempt at the flare etc. Yup. would I GUARANTEE no damage? Nope.
It's not a reflection on training standards per se, some schools and instructors are better than others ( and the same is true of some ppl's). More an indication that many (NOT ALL) shun recurrency training and view the LPC as a nuisance. That and the personal belief that the brevity of some LPCs is insufficient in some cases.
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When to use "best glide"?
flingwings has more than a grain of truth in his comment about avoiding best glide tricks.
When should you use best glide?
After the successful transition to a good autorotation - rotor in the green and steady, pedal trimmed, speed about right,
and after the turn toward the wind.
and only when you realize that the ONLY good landing place is too far away, and little else is usable, at all.
Then, you bend over to best glide, set the aircraft up, and see if you will make it. This is a test, and recognize it as such. A test to see if you really can make that far away alternative.
Can you make it? You can tell easily once you have stabilized in the best glide, because the place where you will hit the ground is the only place on the bubble that stays in place while every other place slides up the bubble (too far) or down the bubble (close enough).
How do you know if the far away place passed the test? The place had better be moving down the bubble, cause all your prayers won't make the helo go one yard farther!
And if the place is OK, plan to get into it, past the edge, and be too steep on it, cause you can burn off height.
If the place is not ok, too far away? Just slow back down to best ROD, turn toward the best bad landing area, tighten your shoulder harness, and get ready for loud noises.
Does Best Glide speed really make a difference? Yes, absolutely, Try it next time you are out.
When should you use best glide?
After the successful transition to a good autorotation - rotor in the green and steady, pedal trimmed, speed about right,
and after the turn toward the wind.
and only when you realize that the ONLY good landing place is too far away, and little else is usable, at all.
Then, you bend over to best glide, set the aircraft up, and see if you will make it. This is a test, and recognize it as such. A test to see if you really can make that far away alternative.
Can you make it? You can tell easily once you have stabilized in the best glide, because the place where you will hit the ground is the only place on the bubble that stays in place while every other place slides up the bubble (too far) or down the bubble (close enough).
How do you know if the far away place passed the test? The place had better be moving down the bubble, cause all your prayers won't make the helo go one yard farther!
And if the place is OK, plan to get into it, past the edge, and be too steep on it, cause you can burn off height.
If the place is not ok, too far away? Just slow back down to best ROD, turn toward the best bad landing area, tighten your shoulder harness, and get ready for loud noises.
Does Best Glide speed really make a difference? Yes, absolutely, Try it next time you are out.
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If your going to teach autos, then do all of it, yes PFL's are a valid & important exercise, but then get back to some familiar ground & go all the way. This power termination is a wank, it proves nothing, because you used the engine to save your arse rather than your skills applied to the aerodynamics of a helicopter in auto & you just demonstrated to a student that you cant do an EOL. If the conditions get wrong during the auto - then of course recover with power, go round & get it right. An auto is 1. the correct entry. 2. sort out where are you going & how are you going to get there. 3. adjust glide for getting there. 3. Flare. 4. initial pitch pull (if required) 5. level & 6. the cushion. After you place all the ingredients for creating a cake into a pot & prepare for baking, there ain't much point if you then don't finish & don't bake the cake to complete the job. Same with autos. The lack of schools & instructors doing EOL's is I suspect possibly a reflection of skills?? It is a requirement in the syllabus. Our students must achieve EOL's without intervention from the instructor before a license test.
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Levo,
If you are interested in particular speeds for data recording, fair play to you, record away. (Gazelle 95kias, EC135 90KIAS).
If however it is to help achieve decent PFLs in any aircraft, my advice is to not complicate matters too much.
Most turbine helis will be decent for range at about 90 KIAS. The difference in range speed between those you have listed is negligible and indeed clearly limited by pilot accuracy whilst trying to select a field, shut down engs, etc etc.
Remember too that there is a big difference in an Autorotation and a PFL.
An auto is an academic exercise,it is about hitting numbers and noting glides, nr etc. Autos at different speeds and NRs give you a tool box of skills to pull out whenever you need them........that would be during a PFL; Or a real one I suppose
A PFL is all about making a field suitable, if that entails flying at 60 kts for a bit, then 72, then 96, all that is fine. If you are into the first third of a field, with sufficient energy to land safely with either a flare and cushion or just a constant attitude cushion it was a good PFL.
If you manage to shut down engs, get a call out, warn crew/pax etc etc.................a very nice bonus.
Happy Flying mate.
If you are interested in particular speeds for data recording, fair play to you, record away. (Gazelle 95kias, EC135 90KIAS).
If however it is to help achieve decent PFLs in any aircraft, my advice is to not complicate matters too much.
Most turbine helis will be decent for range at about 90 KIAS. The difference in range speed between those you have listed is negligible and indeed clearly limited by pilot accuracy whilst trying to select a field, shut down engs, etc etc.
Remember too that there is a big difference in an Autorotation and a PFL.
An auto is an academic exercise,it is about hitting numbers and noting glides, nr etc. Autos at different speeds and NRs give you a tool box of skills to pull out whenever you need them........that would be during a PFL; Or a real one I suppose
A PFL is all about making a field suitable, if that entails flying at 60 kts for a bit, then 72, then 96, all that is fine. If you are into the first third of a field, with sufficient energy to land safely with either a flare and cushion or just a constant attitude cushion it was a good PFL.
If you manage to shut down engs, get a call out, warn crew/pax etc etc.................a very nice bonus.
Happy Flying mate.
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Rotors88
I disagree that there is no point in power recovery autorotations. The aim is to teach someone how to get to a position over the ground they want to land on, and get there with a minimum of foreward speed and vertical speed. You don't need to touch down, and in fact there are a lot of places where you'd like the student to practice getting to that would not be good to touch down on. Power recoveries, if done right give 90% of the teaching points at 5% of the risk.
I disagree that there is no point in power recovery autorotations. The aim is to teach someone how to get to a position over the ground they want to land on, and get there with a minimum of foreward speed and vertical speed. You don't need to touch down, and in fact there are a lot of places where you'd like the student to practice getting to that would not be good to touch down on. Power recoveries, if done right give 90% of the teaching points at 5% of the risk.
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the cake, remember the cake, if your going to bake a cake you add ALL the ingredients, prepare & finally you bake to perfection. An auto is much the same, without the end (EOL) you ain't done. If the ground is suitable then do he complete package from beginning to end, otherwise your not teaching all that is required, again its in the Helicopter VFR syllabus.
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I do agree with rotors88 I think an auto should be to the ground, the problem is that alot of instructors out there can't manage it, yes the R22 can be a bit of a handfull but its quite interesting that quite a lot of the students I have flown with have never been down to the ground in an EOL.
I recently EOL landed a R44 and a R22 both from 10,000 feet it enabled me to demonstrate speed/roto rpm for what felt like ages and gave the student plenty of time to have a go himself. A 40 knot EOL in a R44 is something else !!!!
I recently EOL landed a R44 and a R22 both from 10,000 feet it enabled me to demonstrate speed/roto rpm for what felt like ages and gave the student plenty of time to have a go himself. A 40 knot EOL in a R44 is something else !!!!
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You need to know which way the wind blows before you take a p*ss.
Promoting touchdowns autos to newbees shows a complete lack of sensibility towards learning curves and teaching methods.
What's next....real tailrotor failures ?
Murphy is ready for your kind.
Promoting touchdowns autos to newbees shows a complete lack of sensibility towards learning curves and teaching methods.
What's next....real tailrotor failures ?
Murphy is ready for your kind.
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Yeah we teach those too, & to the ground. Failed tail-rotor, jammed left, jammed right, jammed lever in different positions (max pwr, min pwr, lever full down) jammed cyclic & yes all to the ground. We teach our students these techniques so they may have the best possible opportunity to survive one of these occurrences. Again its in the syllabus so required to be taught.
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The Army Air Corps have stopped doing EOLs in Gazelle, apart from training at middle wallop I believe. This is due to the "risk/reward" ratio not being sufficiently stacked in favour of EOLs.
Rotors - How many Eng failures or deliberate shut downs have you had to date??
How many AC have been banged by practicing for something that is unlikely at best.
I personally think that students should be demonstrared EOLs during training or Type Rating and then possibly a currency of every 5 years or so, a flare recovery PFL is sufficient at other times.
For new studes following this, there is some questionable terminology being used......
Auto - Academic exercise to note glides at various speeds etc
PFL - Utilising Auto to make a landing site, normally recovered by a specified height.
EOL - Using auto to complete a landing without the assistance of the engine. Basically a PFL to land ...without the engine going
Rotors - How many Eng failures or deliberate shut downs have you had to date??
How many AC have been banged by practicing for something that is unlikely at best.
I personally think that students should be demonstrared EOLs during training or Type Rating and then possibly a currency of every 5 years or so, a flare recovery PFL is sufficient at other times.
For new studes following this, there is some questionable terminology being used......
Auto - Academic exercise to note glides at various speeds etc
PFL - Utilising Auto to make a landing site, normally recovered by a specified height.
EOL - Using auto to complete a landing without the assistance of the engine. Basically a PFL to land ...without the engine going
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Hello Fayedeck, in 19 short years of flying I have had 2 real jammed pedals & 1 real engine failure, all 3 landed without incident except maybe some unintended excessive moisture in my undies. Since instructing we practise EOL's & jammed controls at least 3, 4 or more a day, every day. No incidents, accidents or bang ups on my record from these training sorties, thank you. Interesting to note the Australian Army still goes all the way with both jammed controls & EOL's. Again read the BLOODY VFR Helicopter syllabus its a BLOODY requirement to teach these!!!!!!!! 
typical ausy eh
ps would love to see your jammed cyclic landing and even more the " oops my blades have delaminated in my R22 landing " Thats a MUST
possibly even a " my head appears to be stuck up my arse " landing too ??
ps would love to see your jammed cyclic landing
and even more the " oops my blades have delaminated in my R22 landing " Thats a MUSTpossibly even a " my head appears to be stuck up my arse " landing too ??
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Lucky we don't fly the Robinson, which quite possibly is the must unsafe, fragile machine ever made, which has probably killed the most pilots due catastrophic airframes failures in history. There are even blades delaminating in the box before being flown!! How do you deal with a delimitation in flight?? Easy don't get into a dodgy Robbie
How do you deal with a delimitation in flight?? Easy don't get into a dodgy Robbie
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rotors88,
Such explosions do little to convince others of your case, and leave me thinking that you have much to learn. It is easy for the ignorant to espouse such drivel.
It is far easier to toss a rock through a window than it is to roll a sheet of glass.
It could instead be said that the Robinson has introduced safe, affordable helicopter training and flight to thousands across the world.
Such explosions do little to convince others of your case, and leave me thinking that you have much to learn. It is easy for the ignorant to espouse such drivel.
It is far easier to toss a rock through a window than it is to roll a sheet of glass.
It could instead be said that the Robinson has introduced safe, affordable helicopter training and flight to thousands across the world.