Help Needed
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Help Needed
I am relatively new to aviation and I have decided to purchase a helicopter. I have had a look at various makes and models and I have found an ex-military gazelle that seems ideal for my personal use. I am aware of the restrictions in relation to the permit to fly. The company selling the helicopter seem very respectable, and both the Chief Pilot and Head of Training, and also the Maintenance Engineer, seem very professional and polite. I have been provided with a status sheet for the helicopter showing component times remaining.
My problem is this:
Do I rely on the company selling the aircraft to be honest in relation to the condition of the helicopter and its components, or do I arrange for an independent inspection of the aircraft and its logbooks to be conducted. I have contacted McAlpines who have informed me that they do not carry out pre-purchase surveys. Can anyone tell me if a survey of a helicopter has various levels (as is the case with a survey of a house), or is there a standard procedure that is adopted, and what is the minimum that you would expect?
I am not expecting an engineer to strip down components during a survey as that would seem extreme, so what could I reasonably expect of a survey and at what sort of cost? Do I have to specify what I require an engineer to check during his survey or do I leave that to the professional? I would appreciate any advice.
Pete
My problem is this:
Do I rely on the company selling the aircraft to be honest in relation to the condition of the helicopter and its components, or do I arrange for an independent inspection of the aircraft and its logbooks to be conducted. I have contacted McAlpines who have informed me that they do not carry out pre-purchase surveys. Can anyone tell me if a survey of a helicopter has various levels (as is the case with a survey of a house), or is there a standard procedure that is adopted, and what is the minimum that you would expect?
I am not expecting an engineer to strip down components during a survey as that would seem extreme, so what could I reasonably expect of a survey and at what sort of cost? Do I have to specify what I require an engineer to check during his survey or do I leave that to the professional? I would appreciate any advice.
Pete
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Hello Pete,
Welcome to Helicopters!
If you are going to arrange finance for your purchase, I am fairly confident that you won't get finance unless you have had the a pre-purchase survey carried out first.
I would ALWAYS suggest that you have an engineer look at the aircraft and all of the Tech Records before you make a final offer the machine anyway!
You seem to be asking the right sort of questions, so don't worry too much.
Feel free to PM and I can give you some very good contact names/numbers for your proposed purchase!!
Xavier
Welcome to Helicopters!
If you are going to arrange finance for your purchase, I am fairly confident that you won't get finance unless you have had the a pre-purchase survey carried out first.
I would ALWAYS suggest that you have an engineer look at the aircraft and all of the Tech Records before you make a final offer the machine anyway!
You seem to be asking the right sort of questions, so don't worry too much.
Feel free to PM and I can give you some very good contact names/numbers for your proposed purchase!!
Xavier
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buying a chopper
pete
First thing, take your time and don't rush.
buying the wrong chopper can be a very expensive experience.
I personaly advise you to avoid old models and have a look to new ones
Remember in helicopter industry all is about money
First thing, take your time and don't rush.
buying the wrong chopper can be a very expensive experience.
I personaly advise you to avoid old models and have a look to new ones
Remember in helicopter industry all is about money
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Having bought a second hand helicopter I totally agree with froggy_pilot - take your time.
I love the Gazelle but I would be very cautious about buying one - you might want to ask around and find the cost of components and maintenance. As far as reliability goes you can't beat a Bell 206, although it's a bit stodgy compared to a Gazelle.
I love the Gazelle but I would be very cautious about buying one - you might want to ask around and find the cost of components and maintenance. As far as reliability goes you can't beat a Bell 206, although it's a bit stodgy compared to a Gazelle.
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Safety, reliability, availability of parts & engineers, good resale, moderate operating costs. Easy to fly, great for autos, choose a Bell 206 or 206L, or if budget constrained B47G. What ever you do if you value your life stay well clear of the fling-wing Robinsons. PM for more
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Do I rely on the company selling the aircraft to be honest in relation to the condition of the helicopter and its components,
Robinsons are not bad, but I am naturally biased towards '47s. 1000 hours in one and All other types quirkes of misdemeanour will fall into disarray.
all the best tet
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Help Needed
Thanks everyone for all your help and advice.
The problem is that nobody has answered the original question that I posted. Assuming that I am happy with the helicopter that I am going to purchase, and I have decided to get a survey carried out, can anyone tell me what a survey should consist of, (checking logbooks, components, test flight, etc.), and if a general survey or a full survey, involving stripping down components, may be needed, and which level of survey would I require and what safeguards would I gain from having a survey carried out,
Thanks again.
Pete
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To answer your original question; Yes, you need to find an independent engineer to carry out a pre-buy survey. Never trust the seller. (especially in aviation) Find an engineer with Gazelle experience (ex-army).
Better red than ...
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A survey will most likely consist of a review of the paperwork for the airframe, engines and avionics, and an inspection of same (against the records) by a LAME who is experienced on type.
So for a HT2 or 3 you want a guy (or gal) with experience on the Gazelle who can advise you about what is right and wrong with what is written down in logs; what is due for replacement on time and what is not looking so good based on experience.
You will probably pay for a day's services so plan the day out and have a list of questions to ask about the airframe, head, blades, engine, avionics, etc. Many ex mil machines have been maintained to a very high level. The question will be whether certain parts have limited time and what the replacement cost will be for those parts.
Probably not if you are a low hours pilot. Check out the accident stats for ex mil Gazelles and low hour pilots. Also the costs of parts. With a permit aircraft, you are very restricted on (legal) usage.
So for a HT2 or 3 you want a guy (or gal) with experience on the Gazelle who can advise you about what is right and wrong with what is written down in logs; what is due for replacement on time and what is not looking so good based on experience.
You will probably pay for a day's services so plan the day out and have a list of questions to ask about the airframe, head, blades, engine, avionics, etc. Many ex mil machines have been maintained to a very high level. The question will be whether certain parts have limited time and what the replacement cost will be for those parts.
... ex-military gazelle that seems ideal for my personal use ...
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ADs are your biggest danger area. The Aircraft manufacturer and the Engine manufacturer issue ADs that must be complied with and can be expensive. For instance buying an aircraft with an Alison 250 C20 engine, if the accessories gearbox hasn’t been back to an overhaul shop since it was built, then if you’re the unlucky bugger who has a problem you then become liable for the catch up ADs for the past twenty years!!! $30k is a common bill.
Pay a competent surveyor of YOUR CHOICE for a few days work and make them liable for their survey. Expect to pay around £1500 it could save you tens of thousands.
Pay a competent surveyor of YOUR CHOICE for a few days work and make them liable for their survey. Expect to pay around £1500 it could save you tens of thousands.
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The problem is that nobody has answered the original question that I posted. Assuming that I am happy with the helicopter that I am going to purchase, and I have decided to get a survey carried out, can anyone tell me what a survey should consist of, (checking logbooks, components, test flight, etc.), and if a general survey or a full survey, involving stripping down components, may be needed, and which level of survey would I require and what safeguards would I gain from having a survey carried out,
i did send you a pm to contact me as a gazelle owner
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An ex-mil helicopter may be cheaper in terms of aquisition costs, but then again, most 20-or-so year old helis won't depreciate much in the next few years. If you spent more on, say, an MD500 or B206, you'd probably have lower operating costs and the ability to sell it for about the same price as you bought it, leaving you with more money in the end.
what is the point in having a helicopter where you cannot take passengers ??? cannot fly across channel...cannot fly at night ... Certainly cannot take them to any thing like Ascot or grand prix or any racing etc ......complete waste of money . Get a proper helicopter or save up for a while longer but this is the WORST route to go down and one i nearly did years ago ...god forbid. As for asking if you need a survey etc .............a fool and his money .......your going to be eaten alive 
ps how many hours do you have and how long have you been flying ??
ps how many hours do you have and how long have you been flying ??
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There are plenty of helicopter maintenance organisations around you really need to talk to one of them, PDG Helicopters have a base at 1/2 Penny Green airport nearby Wolverhampton not to far from you live I’m sure they would be able to help.
