Video released for Aust Army BlackHawk crash
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212 Man
Having spent a good few days flopping around the Og off various Pacific nations in various stages of 'unrest', we used to practice all the time to the deck of the ship day and night as that was the only piece of friendly territory available to us. The deck used for this assault is HUGE (can fit two (three at a squeeze) helos on deck. We would have much preferred to do it to land but someone in the legal fraternity always kept saying that it was an act of war to just lob on someones doorstep.
Knowing the way the army does business, I'm quite sure the mission was briefed and planned well. Let the BOC decide on why the execution of the plan failed. Hopefully, we can learn from this tragic accident.
All I can say is that its a tradgedy that two young lives were lost but its a miracle that most got out (from depths of 30m they are saying).
Having spent a good few days flopping around the Og off various Pacific nations in various stages of 'unrest', we used to practice all the time to the deck of the ship day and night as that was the only piece of friendly territory available to us. The deck used for this assault is HUGE (can fit two (three at a squeeze) helos on deck. We would have much preferred to do it to land but someone in the legal fraternity always kept saying that it was an act of war to just lob on someones doorstep.
Knowing the way the army does business, I'm quite sure the mission was briefed and planned well. Let the BOC decide on why the execution of the plan failed. Hopefully, we can learn from this tragic accident.
All I can say is that its a tradgedy that two young lives were lost but its a miracle that most got out (from depths of 30m they are saying).
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w_ocker,
Are you saying by "assault" that he meant some kind of fly-by without slowing down and without landing?
What is the purpose of this "assault?"
Clearly, he slowed way down, and was going about 10 knots forward speed, and clearly he was passing directly over the helipad. Looks suspiciously like he meant to be at zero knots at the helipad, to me. Maybe I'd call that a "landing". What is an "assault?"
Go ahead, punch your screen, but recognize that this is a legit question!
Are you saying by "assault" that he meant some kind of fly-by without slowing down and without landing?
What is the purpose of this "assault?"
Clearly, he slowed way down, and was going about 10 knots forward speed, and clearly he was passing directly over the helipad. Looks suspiciously like he meant to be at zero knots at the helipad, to me. Maybe I'd call that a "landing". What is an "assault?"
Go ahead, punch your screen, but recognize that this is a legit question!
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Not at all Nick. Fair question and I perhaps should have specified what I meant by assualt - I dont think thats giving too much away. I mean "assault" as in the fast-rope delivery of special forces troops for tactical reasons to a potentially hostile target. Thus the very fast approach, late flare to a hover over the target. It's my belief (with no certainty, but some background) that whatever has (obviously) gone so sadly wrong has occured in this unforgiving flight regime. I have my beliefs about what may have caused the heavy contact with the deck but think I'll keep those to myself, as I will about the profiles used for such ops.
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Try Reading These
Like others I'm sure, I know a little about this situation, the history of the role, the pilots and the capabilities of the aircraft.
My only comment is that we should all follow these:
http://www.defence.gov.au/boi/blackh...transcipts.htm
before having too much more to say.
PR
My only comment is that we should all follow these:
http://www.defence.gov.au/boi/blackh...transcipts.htm
before having too much more to say.
PR
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Boy oh boy. 171 are having a terrible time of it.
I am guessing there will be a big shake up now that they have CAT 4'ed (?) one in EM on sat.
It's been kept very quiet.
I am guessing there will be a big shake up now that they have CAT 4'ed (?) one in EM on sat.
It's been kept very quiet.
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Grow Up
Griffinblack,
Sensationalising and big noting yourself with apparent covered up information does not make you look any more intelligent.
Maybe your backyard isnt all that clean either. Grow up fool!!
Sensationalising and big noting yourself with apparent covered up information does not make you look any more intelligent.
Maybe your backyard isnt all that clean either. Grow up fool!!
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PaarmReader,
I read the first day's transcript, and am really impressed! Can the nation possibly find a less qualified board of inquiry? Is there a higher rank, more separated from the job that could be found, or are ministers and generals sufficient to bury the inquiry in red tape?
The officious, legalistic attitude of the board and its members ASSURES that the technical facts - the ONLY facts relevant - will not be played as strongly as the political issues.
EXAMPLE, page 23, line 17:
Q. The aircraft itself, how many engines does it have and how does it actually get into the sky?
In short, the transcript reads like a kangaroo court, not a board of experts trying to find out what happened. I think the crews would be better served by a few trained accident investigators, working quietly and professionally to uncover the facts. Don't you guys have any?
I read the first day's transcript, and am really impressed! Can the nation possibly find a less qualified board of inquiry? Is there a higher rank, more separated from the job that could be found, or are ministers and generals sufficient to bury the inquiry in red tape?
The officious, legalistic attitude of the board and its members ASSURES that the technical facts - the ONLY facts relevant - will not be played as strongly as the political issues.
EXAMPLE, page 23, line 17:
Q. The aircraft itself, how many engines does it have and how does it actually get into the sky?
In short, the transcript reads like a kangaroo court, not a board of experts trying to find out what happened. I think the crews would be better served by a few trained accident investigators, working quietly and professionally to uncover the facts. Don't you guys have any?
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Well, Blades clear.
Them’s fighting words. Fortunately my backyard won’t be scrutinised for quite some time thanks to those
I agree that
But 2 in less than a year? In training? You are kidding aren’t you. I think you need to take a good close look at yourself.
Them’s fighting words. Fortunately my backyard won’t be scrutinised for quite some time thanks to those
people [that] are at the pinnacle of military aviation
Mistakes are made, accidents happen its a part of life.
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GriffinBlack, a word of caution mister.Given your listed personal profile and the comments you have made, it will not be hard for interested parties to workout what you do, where you do it and (with a little assistance from DSA), who you are. Given some previous faux pas made by PPruners from a similar background as yours, I would take some time to consider who those interested parties might be and how your comments might attract their attention. Remember, punters like you and I are not the only ones who peruse the content of PPrune.
I love a bit of banter as much as the next man, but there is a right time and place. Its possible that your comments are in neither and as one professional to another, I would like to suggest you keep those comments to yourself or make them in a more appropriate forum. I would hate to see you and your 'outfit' fall foul of an investigation (witch-hunt) and subsequent censure of PPrune as a result of some irresponsible comments made on your part. Let some other f**wit do that
EO
PS No rile or rancour intended
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Griffin Black, mate you really are a tool.
Griffiin......... Hmm must be associated with 1 AVN Regt. You must know absolutely everything there is about YOUR bother REGT.
Better work out what side your bread is buttered on mate.
Phone call inbound!!!!!
Max
Griffiin......... Hmm must be associated with 1 AVN Regt. You must know absolutely everything there is about YOUR bother REGT.
Better work out what side your bread is buttered on mate.
Phone call inbound!!!!!
Max
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So many questions
The formation, line abeam or otherwise, is generally dictated by the tactical requirements of the 'client'. It depends on how they want to shake out on the ground. As one closely associated with this accident, I can assure you that the crews were very well trained. The margins were very close, but the risk was managed. Unfortunately things did not go well on the night.
And as far as Dropbear's infamous blade strike goes...well...better ask him!
I think if you look at the SF accident rate worldwide, we don't rate too highly on the list, pro rata....but of course, any accident causing injury or death is unacceptable.
And as far as Dropbear's infamous blade strike goes...well...better ask him!
I think if you look at the SF accident rate worldwide, we don't rate too highly on the list, pro rata....but of course, any accident causing injury or death is unacceptable.
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Papa 68 asked this question
for a while i thought maybe, until I saw this in one of the press releases
I believe that I cannot answer the question.
I note the thread creep with some dismay, i would say that it be better to not criticise the outfit or the pilotage too much rather than the beauracracy that allowed or perhaps presented the expectations of performance.
We cop the same thing at times, expectations of clean musters in thick trees, mongrel cattle, poorly set up or maintained yards and fences and people who should know better, bad mouth you because you didn't get 100% in half the time. If only??
Perhaps the presence of a supreme court judge should assure that information is at least presented in a correct and legalistic manner so as not to be discounted or questioned later, perhaps???
Perhaps we could examine the terms of reference of the BOI's, do they go far enough??
This one had a funny bit in the middle of all the dust and confusion.
While the dust was settling a young feathered subaltern sprinted up the hill to where he found the local commandant, legs apart hands on hips and gruff expression on dial, who enquired, "what's up?"
youngster replied in rather breathles fashion, 'we need another helicopter sir.'
the reply was quick, "well sonny you just go down to the quartermaster an' see if he can get you one."
boss man goes down to find one exalted one in the dust and heat and invites him up to his office while a replacement machine is being sought.
Exalted one says that he will be OK.
boss man says, "well sir when I get back to my office I will then organise a replacement, which will probably take thirty minutes to get airborne and forty minutes flying time down to here. You are welcome to use my air-conditioned office and telephone to get out of this heat while you wait!"
Exalted one then didn't hesitate to accept.
Perhaps this will alleviate you of what I think are some of your concerns.
The inquiry president, the retired Supreme Court judge David Levine, QC, also took a swipe at Defence top brass
I note the thread creep with some dismay, i would say that it be better to not criticise the outfit or the pilotage too much rather than the beauracracy that allowed or perhaps presented the expectations of performance.
We cop the same thing at times, expectations of clean musters in thick trees, mongrel cattle, poorly set up or maintained yards and fences and people who should know better, bad mouth you because you didn't get 100% in half the time. If only??
Perhaps the presence of a supreme court judge should assure that information is at least presented in a correct and legalistic manner so as not to be discounted or questioned later, perhaps???
Perhaps we could examine the terms of reference of the BOI's, do they go far enough??
And as far as Dropbear's infamous blade strike goes...well...better ask him
While the dust was settling a young feathered subaltern sprinted up the hill to where he found the local commandant, legs apart hands on hips and gruff expression on dial, who enquired, "what's up?"
youngster replied in rather breathles fashion, 'we need another helicopter sir.'
the reply was quick, "well sonny you just go down to the quartermaster an' see if he can get you one."
boss man goes down to find one exalted one in the dust and heat and invites him up to his office while a replacement machine is being sought.
Exalted one says that he will be OK.
boss man says, "well sir when I get back to my office I will then organise a replacement, which will probably take thirty minutes to get airborne and forty minutes flying time down to here. You are welcome to use my air-conditioned office and telephone to get out of this heat while you wait!"
Exalted one then didn't hesitate to accept.
Avoid imitations
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Have I got this wrong, or does the report intimate that the aircraft was not being flown by visual cues but by reliance on GPS? And that a quickstop resulted in rotor droop, increased rate of descent and a sudden loss of control? 
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ShyTorque
There's a link on the previous page of this thread to the public BOI site which is updated daily with the transcript of the previous day's evidence. I've been keeping up with them (to learn, not judge) and this week has begun to focus more on the flying aspects of the incident. If you take the chance to read the evidence you'll start getting an idea of the picture.
This newspaper report was simply constructed taken from one day's evidence, the downnside of a public inquiry I guess.
There's a link on the previous page of this thread to the public BOI site which is updated daily with the transcript of the previous day's evidence. I've been keeping up with them (to learn, not judge) and this week has begun to focus more on the flying aspects of the incident. If you take the chance to read the evidence you'll start getting an idea of the picture.
This newspaper report was simply constructed taken from one day's evidence, the downnside of a public inquiry I guess.
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It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths supposed experts will go to sway thought from the obvious pilot error in this case. GPS fault!? Was he doing a blindfolded instrument approach to the deck via GPS? No one wants any pilot to leave this life having been the cause for a crash that took someone else's life also and we'd all like to think that it couldn't possibly be human error, why that's too personal, unkind and not PC. What I've seen is that classified accident reports don't necessarily synch-up with what the public is fed for the sake of an individual's family, unit and morale. Had this approach been on land, he could have easily bounced along the ground till he had it in control again but he had to "stick the landing" as he had no where else to go once he committed himself. RIP. My 2 cents.
It is a curious situation. Is he saying there was a GPS error, or that the GPS position for where the vessel actually was positioned at that time was in error? I think that the latter was probably correct. If that is correct, then the question raised about range calls made from the GPS data versus visual cues is pertinent.
Does the BOI site say anything about this?
Does the BOI site say anything about this?
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Evilroy
The latter: GPS mark taken at lift and I think again overhead the ship but although the ship was not making way, the drift meant that 15/20 mins later on approach the GPS mark was out by ca 100m and therefore the range calls were. The Captain registered the discrepancy visually at the first range call (corroborated by both loadmasters evidence), the copilot kept making the range calls in accordance with SOPs but it was a visual approach.
The BOI site has the written transcripts for each days evidence, scope of the inquiry etc but as yet it hasn't published any views as such and has until Jan 08 to report. So you need to read the transcripts for yourself or find the derestricted accident report which I can't. This week on Tue or Wed an army accident investigator gave evidence having tried to recreat the accident in a blackhawk sim and outlines the specific parameters which allowed them to do so.
The latter: GPS mark taken at lift and I think again overhead the ship but although the ship was not making way, the drift meant that 15/20 mins later on approach the GPS mark was out by ca 100m and therefore the range calls were. The Captain registered the discrepancy visually at the first range call (corroborated by both loadmasters evidence), the copilot kept making the range calls in accordance with SOPs but it was a visual approach.
The BOI site has the written transcripts for each days evidence, scope of the inquiry etc but as yet it hasn't published any views as such and has until Jan 08 to report. So you need to read the transcripts for yourself or find the derestricted accident report which I can't. This week on Tue or Wed an army accident investigator gave evidence having tried to recreat the accident in a blackhawk sim and outlines the specific parameters which allowed them to do so.