Video of helicopter rescue from stranded freighter
Pinho, obviously the aircrews did not self-dispatch to the scene. The decision to remove the Filipino boat crew was made by higher-ups. My question is: Why? In the video, the ship does look stable. I've landed on oil platforms and rigs that moved more than it.
If you look at the other thread on this topic, and go to the site that has the still photographs, you can see that all they needed to do was throw a rope ladder over the starboard bow and climb down in the lee. They could have easily walked in to the beach without even getting their shirts wet, I'd reckon! And if it had gone just a few more feet in they wouldn't have even gotten their socks wet. So what was the urgency about airlifting them off? I'm just asking...
As for why the 412 crew didn't just land on the deck - hey, that "winch only" notice was for regular ops, right? This was not that. Certainly a keen 412 driver could have brought his ship in and kept it light-on-the-skids while 60 or 70 Filipinos were loaded (wouldn't only taken one flight!). Yes, even you could've done it without breaking a sweat, just admit it.
But you're right, no telling what the winds were. Okay, so land on the forward-most hatch cover! That was one long ship!
Hey, I'm not knocking the "rescue!" Made for some dramatic footage of helicopters doing what they do best. But you have to wonder...did even one of those crewmembers look up...waaaaaay up...at that 412 that was dripping oil and raining parts down on him and then look at the beach right under the bow and go, "Why am I doing this risky sh*t? It's friggin' COLD out here!"
If you look at the other thread on this topic, and go to the site that has the still photographs, you can see that all they needed to do was throw a rope ladder over the starboard bow and climb down in the lee. They could have easily walked in to the beach without even getting their shirts wet, I'd reckon! And if it had gone just a few more feet in they wouldn't have even gotten their socks wet. So what was the urgency about airlifting them off? I'm just asking...
As for why the 412 crew didn't just land on the deck - hey, that "winch only" notice was for regular ops, right? This was not that. Certainly a keen 412 driver could have brought his ship in and kept it light-on-the-skids while 60 or 70 Filipinos were loaded (wouldn't only taken one flight!). Yes, even you could've done it without breaking a sweat, just admit it.
But you're right, no telling what the winds were. Okay, so land on the forward-most hatch cover! That was one long ship!
Hey, I'm not knocking the "rescue!" Made for some dramatic footage of helicopters doing what they do best. But you have to wonder...did even one of those crewmembers look up...waaaaaay up...at that 412 that was dripping oil and raining parts down on him and then look at the beach right under the bow and go, "Why am I doing this risky sh*t? It's friggin' COLD out here!"
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Well,
looking at that footage, those are normal procedures where I operate (Portuguese Air Force 751 Search and Rescue Squadron, flying the EH101 Merlin). This is why I made the comment, we are not qualified to land on any kind of ships, and we don't do it. My first operational mission as a co-pilot in 2003 was a Medevac from an American USMC Logistics vessel, 900 ft long, with a heliport where two helicopters could land side-by-side, but we didn't land because our Sops tell us not to do it... It actually felt very stupid to be hovering at 30 ft on calm seas and doing winching ops when we had below us a heliport larger than the one we usually operated from. Probably a Portuguese Navy guy would think differently of me (they land Lynx on ships all the time). But maybe that is also the reason those guys didn't land.
You have a point about the distance to the beach, that is very close, and you also have a point that sometimes, rescue operations are launched so that the TV guys can get nice footage of winching ops. I don't know if that was the case, but anyway, thet got out safely...
looking at that footage, those are normal procedures where I operate (Portuguese Air Force 751 Search and Rescue Squadron, flying the EH101 Merlin). This is why I made the comment, we are not qualified to land on any kind of ships, and we don't do it. My first operational mission as a co-pilot in 2003 was a Medevac from an American USMC Logistics vessel, 900 ft long, with a heliport where two helicopters could land side-by-side, but we didn't land because our Sops tell us not to do it... It actually felt very stupid to be hovering at 30 ft on calm seas and doing winching ops when we had below us a heliport larger than the one we usually operated from. Probably a Portuguese Navy guy would think differently of me (they land Lynx on ships all the time). But maybe that is also the reason those guys didn't land.
You have a point about the distance to the beach, that is very close, and you also have a point that sometimes, rescue operations are launched so that the TV guys can get nice footage of winching ops. I don't know if that was the case, but anyway, thet got out safely...
Avoid imitations
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Pinho, I HAVE been involved in rescue where we landed a SAR machine (an S-76) on a very similar vessel to this one, so I do know it is possible. In our case it was 220 miles offshore and we were keen to conserve fuel and also to effect a rapid and gentle transfer because of the severe (head) injuries involved. We saw it was possible and did so, although we were not briefed either way by SOPs.
I think the restriction on landing on hatch covers is a structural strength issue but even with our wheels, as opposed to load-spreading skids, it was no problem whatseover, despite the ship being under way.
That is the only reason I made my initial comment about wondering why the crew elected to winch. It's NOT a criticism, only a question. Again, as far as I can see no-one else has criticised the crew.
BTW, I never arrived on scene and worried too much about the weather forecast - the actual would be more relevant; we didn't often have sufficient fuel to worry that far ahead!
I think the restriction on landing on hatch covers is a structural strength issue but even with our wheels, as opposed to load-spreading skids, it was no problem whatseover, despite the ship being under way.
That is the only reason I made my initial comment about wondering why the crew elected to winch. It's NOT a criticism, only a question. Again, as far as I can see no-one else has criticised the crew.
BTW, I never arrived on scene and worried too much about the weather forecast - the actual would be more relevant; we didn't often have sufficient fuel to worry that far ahead!
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Shy and FH. I don't have a problem with anyone asking questions as to why something was done a certain way, but bold face statements from some as to "I would have done ......." from the safety of their armchairs, without any of the information that the crew had, is as I stated demeaning to them as professional aviators. Yes this is Pprune and as such, a rumour network, but these people are our peers. Why cant we accept their good work and obvious successful outcomes without the need to second guess their judgements.
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Not shown on the vid here but they did have massive amounts of water coming over the deck at one stage and I'd say the crew were using their best judgement as you would expect. Sitting on the deck taking green water is not a good place to be. There are enough problems these guys have to contend with wothout monday morning quarterbacking, though questioning for the sake of education I'm sure they would accept. Good war story was the Sea King crew (Oz pilot in UK) who winched the crew from a sinking ship and crossing the beach on the way home (at night) had both engines quit due to salt encrustation on the compressors. Auto made to a sloping landing on the side of a steepish hill with no damage and crew awarded suitable medals for a deed exceptionally well done.
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Well first off the Newcastle Rescue crew are all a very professional mob ....and as it turns out the decision to "winch" turned out to be the correct one.
Looking at the footage I think a deck landing would have put the aircraft,crews and those to be rescued in more danger than the winch excercise.
The deck apparently was very oily and of course very wet (due sea spray) and subject to gale force winds .... now I only got some 3000 hrs in 412 (and a couple of thou on the Bk) so perhaps I could be wrong ... but even on a slightly windy day the 412 in turbulance can be a handful ... and once on that slippery deck may well want to "autolocate" itself to another position on said deck without notice or pilot input .... just think of the consequences if you had 10 rescuees gaily marching toward the a/c and it moved suddenly ....
Nah .... they did it the right way for the conditions at that time.
Very well done chaps.....
Cheers
Sgt Schultz .... FYI the ship is owned by the "Lauritzen Line" which if I am not mistaken is Danish owned. I believe their maintenance is Excellent.
(It certainly was when I had the opportunity to sail on their ships MV Thalla Dan and MV Nella Dan to the Antarctic oh so many years ago .....)
Looking at the footage I think a deck landing would have put the aircraft,crews and those to be rescued in more danger than the winch excercise.
The deck apparently was very oily and of course very wet (due sea spray) and subject to gale force winds .... now I only got some 3000 hrs in 412 (and a couple of thou on the Bk) so perhaps I could be wrong ... but even on a slightly windy day the 412 in turbulance can be a handful ... and once on that slippery deck may well want to "autolocate" itself to another position on said deck without notice or pilot input .... just think of the consequences if you had 10 rescuees gaily marching toward the a/c and it moved suddenly ....
Nah .... they did it the right way for the conditions at that time.
Very well done chaps.....
Cheers
Sgt Schultz .... FYI the ship is owned by the "Lauritzen Line" which if I am not mistaken is Danish owned. I believe their maintenance is Excellent.
(It certainly was when I had the opportunity to sail on their ships MV Thalla Dan and MV Nella Dan to the Antarctic oh so many years ago .....)
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Question noone has mentioned is why wasn't the S76 at Willytown used. The 76 is vastly superior to this sort of work, landing on the ship that is, compared to a 412. The crews, both front & back seaters, probably have a lot more experience in this type of flying too.
Casting your memory back to 1983 a 76 landed on the Key Biscayne, a jack up oil rig about to capsize, several times while a 205 had to try to winch as it couldn't land due to its inferior landing gear for this type of work.
Not doubting the crew did their best but were they the best crew available?
Casting your memory back to 1983 a 76 landed on the Key Biscayne, a jack up oil rig about to capsize, several times while a 205 had to try to winch as it couldn't land due to its inferior landing gear for this type of work.
Not doubting the crew did their best but were they the best crew available?
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Spinwing
The Willy 76 used to do more civvy rescues than RAAF ones, especially when off ships or far out to sea. It may of course be down for maintenance; I'm not in touch with them these days.
The Willy 76 used to do more civvy rescues than RAAF ones, especially when off ships or far out to sea. It may of course be down for maintenance; I'm not in touch with them these days.
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To Peter Cook and Nicho and Glenn great job guys you have done your service proud.
To all the wallys out there putting there 2 bobs worth in.
You didnt do the rescue Hunter Westpac did, and did it well.
To all the wallys out there putting there 2 bobs worth in.
You didnt do the rescue Hunter Westpac did, and did it well.
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I'm just a prospective student and have never flown a 412 or a BK117 or any turbine machine for that matter but I watched the rescue unfold so I thought I would pose a few questions..?
1. Wouldn't it be much harder/impossible to control the machine if you set down on a slippery surface and then started moving around due to the wind gusts or the structure moving?
If you want more traction on a slippery surface then you are going to have to put more weight on the skids/wheels... then the load comes off the rotors the engine/engines spool down and if you need to counteract any movement in a hurry your possibly in trouble..?
If you are in the hover at 30ft or whatever away from any obstacles then you have some room to move and are more in control. I know the power margins can be slim while your hovering but it was blowing 30+kts that day.
So from a pilots point of veiw which is the way to go..
2. Anyone know of any forums for Korean coal ship captains because there are a few more questions I have..
1. Wouldn't it be much harder/impossible to control the machine if you set down on a slippery surface and then started moving around due to the wind gusts or the structure moving?
If you want more traction on a slippery surface then you are going to have to put more weight on the skids/wheels... then the load comes off the rotors the engine/engines spool down and if you need to counteract any movement in a hurry your possibly in trouble..?
If you are in the hover at 30ft or whatever away from any obstacles then you have some room to move and are more in control. I know the power margins can be slim while your hovering but it was blowing 30+kts that day.
So from a pilots point of veiw which is the way to go..
2. Anyone know of any forums for Korean coal ship captains because there are a few more questions I have..
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I have read with interest the many thoughts and opinions associated with this thread. I'm a great believer in that each and every one of us is entitled to their own opinion.
At the end of the day, the guys who were there doing the job know what happened so there is no need to justify their actions. The authorities made the decision to get the crew off the ship and due to the many contributing factors on the day, winching them off was the safest way.
Job well done!
At the end of the day, the guys who were there doing the job know what happened so there is no need to justify their actions. The authorities made the decision to get the crew off the ship and due to the many contributing factors on the day, winching them off was the safest way.
Job well done!
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To LHSboy.
Mate, what a top job. We watched the TV footage from the comfort of the sim in Sweden and were very envious. However after checking the local weather we realised the 6-7 metre swells and gale force winds would have been more than challenging. A quick search on Australian ABC revealed several pics:
I would love to see some of these so called ‘expert’ pilots who frequent this forum try to land a 6 tonne 412 or a BK on the deck of a slippery coal ship with waves crashing over the top.
I admit the short 1 minute video was at the end of the 2hr long Rescue. Perhaps these pictures should have been posted first to get a better understanding of the initial conditions?
Once again LHSboy, well done. Also to Mcfud, Poops, Aussy, Towball and Porky. Glad it was you and not me!
Nigel quote:
With respect. There are a minimum of 50 ships off the coast of Newcastle at any one time. The Westpac guys are doing ship landings once a week day and night to ferry injured sailors to hospital. The pilot roster adorns with ex Navy and marine pilots who specialise in this type of work and have for many years. Don’t start me on the back seat guys!
S A
Mate, what a top job. We watched the TV footage from the comfort of the sim in Sweden and were very envious. However after checking the local weather we realised the 6-7 metre swells and gale force winds would have been more than challenging. A quick search on Australian ABC revealed several pics:
I would love to see some of these so called ‘expert’ pilots who frequent this forum try to land a 6 tonne 412 or a BK on the deck of a slippery coal ship with waves crashing over the top.
I admit the short 1 minute video was at the end of the 2hr long Rescue. Perhaps these pictures should have been posted first to get a better understanding of the initial conditions?
Once again LHSboy, well done. Also to Mcfud, Poops, Aussy, Towball and Porky. Glad it was you and not me!
Nigel quote:
“The 76 is vastly superior to this sort of work, landing on the ship that is, compared to a 412. The crews, both front & back seaters, probably have a lot more experience in this type of flying too..”
S A
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As an ex Merchant Seaman myself up until 8 years ago, I can tell you I wouldn't care how you got me off, winch, land or whatever. These ships are not designed to withstand the force generated by a) running aground and b) being pounded by the wind and sea whilst beached. As someone pointed out, in some cases maintenance may be a little slack but even a new build may not be up to the beating mother nature will be giving this girl.
Better to get the crew off as a rescue mission than a body recovery excercise.
Full marks to the aircrew and coastguard who would have coordinated this rescue. You guys and girls do your service proud.
Rob
Better to get the crew off as a rescue mission than a body recovery excercise.
Full marks to the aircrew and coastguard who would have coordinated this rescue. You guys and girls do your service proud.
Rob
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The willytown 76 was put on standby by AusSar for the task, however the task was handled by local police and not AusSar.
Last edited by redsarboy; 13th Jun 2007 at 03:24.
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Wish we could all play nicely together
Well done to the guys who performed their job well. As we would expect and as we should expect.
That aside it's disappointing that at times of need appears to be beyond the 'powers that be' whom are empowered to co-ordinate this type of situation to put aside their petty self interests and ensure ALL of the appropriate available assets are tasked to work together and acheive the best outcome for those in need.
It could well be debated that in this scenario 'IF' following telephone 'medical triage' it was identified that persons are not injured the medical rescue aircraft could be left available to do what they do best (provide care for the sick and injured of the region) and have the willytown boys take care of the current situation.
I may be wrong!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on such a system.
Oh yes, do us all a favour and play the 'ball' not the 'player' my shins hurt.
ta
Stay safe
That aside it's disappointing that at times of need appears to be beyond the 'powers that be' whom are empowered to co-ordinate this type of situation to put aside their petty self interests and ensure ALL of the appropriate available assets are tasked to work together and acheive the best outcome for those in need.
It could well be debated that in this scenario 'IF' following telephone 'medical triage' it was identified that persons are not injured the medical rescue aircraft could be left available to do what they do best (provide care for the sick and injured of the region) and have the willytown boys take care of the current situation.
I may be wrong!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on such a system.
Oh yes, do us all a favour and play the 'ball' not the 'player' my shins hurt.
taStay safe
Last edited by folald; 28th Jan 2008 at 00:49.