Shoes ??
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,583
Received 441 Likes
on
233 Posts
So, you can afford helicopter lessons and have at least two pairs of expensive SHOES as well?
And now you want help to keep the aircraft straight and be better than us?
Sheesh. Some people.
And now you want help to keep the aircraft straight and be better than us?
Sheesh. Some people.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most instructors recommend shoes with thin soles so that you can easily feel the pedals. One of my low hours students switched from trainers to shoes with a thin sole, and he told me it made a tremendous difference. It's true that eventually you can fly wearing just about any type of footwear, but you only have 12 hours and you're struggling, so I'd suggest giving this a try and seeing if it works.
One thing that worries me about your post is that you say your instructors laugh if you ask about footwear. They shouldn't; it's a serious question, and it's wellknown in the instructing world that in the beginning footwear can make a great deal of difference. But in any case, they should take ANYTHING you ask seriously!!!! If this is their general attitude to you, maybe you should consider changing instructor/school. As for them thinking you're trying to kill you, of course they do, because you probably are! But don't worry or take it to heart; we all know it's not intentional - it's just what students do. 
One thing that worries me about your post is that you say your instructors laugh if you ask about footwear. They shouldn't; it's a serious question, and it's wellknown in the instructing world that in the beginning footwear can make a great deal of difference. But in any case, they should take ANYTHING you ask seriously!!!! If this is their general attitude to you, maybe you should consider changing instructor/school. As for them thinking you're trying to kill you, of course they do, because you probably are!
But don't worry or take it to heart; we all know it's not intentional - it's just what students do.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Land of damp and drizzle
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to offer an alternate perspective, I did pretty much all my training in Sidi Blackrain motorbike boots, mainly because that's what I would turn up to the airfield wearing (motorbike + trainers + accident = no more ankles). They're mid-calf, padded and armoured, and have a reasonably thin, hard, inflexible sole.
YMMV
YMMV
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Afrique da sud
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
whirly's advice
Thanks Whirly - in essence everyones replies have made me realise that it would be better to try some normal thin soled rubber work type shoes. To be more specific about my issues the serious safety side came into play when they pushed me into transitions and as you know the amount of pedal movement is big and has to be timed perfectly (has to be reactive ?) and even when I follow I dont seem to register so I will try again later in the week. Technically its not a squeeze around the ankle ??which I dont think the boot exponents here will be doing but rather a push like the clutch of a car. I will get him to do do 1 or 2 for me before I try again - just that that each circuit takes about 5 minutes and ten minutes to get there so it means 5 or so a lesson. I like to see the light hearted side to help relax me - my third transition (landing) last lesson left me 180 degrees the wrong way and I would think if anyone was watching would have thought that it was a remarkable piece of flying - my instructor is a gifted aviator and he sorted it but I am not that keen to even try again to be honest.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 752hPa
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I entirely agree with the "right foot off the pedal" technique. When my instructor had me do it, it made me realise that I had been so tense I had been literally bracing myself between the pedals and the back of the seat. From then on, whenever I sensed that stress was creating tension in my legs, I'd lift my right foot a centimetre from the pedal for a few seconds to force myself to relax.
boots/
rtrnewboy
If you are hung up on Boots\ Shoes\ trainers look for some with rolled heels,
(like car race shoes.)
BUT I bet the neuron path is the closest explaination.
Feet are the most difficult part to cordinate, for me it was a real problem, some say it still is
"The 180 on landing" been there done that, I was made to pick up and do it again, again, again, slowly, the reason given, "and the instructor was correct," was that I dumped collective without pedal input due to the brain overload, and a wish to be on the ground NOW.
Whatever people tell you flying the Helio is one of the most difficult things you will ever do, why do you think you will be in full controle after 12 hours?
More hours\training regular flights 1 hour, then a break if possable, then another hour.
Your brain is trying to assimulate a whole new way of doing things, spatial awareness, physical feeling, motor reflexes etc. if the instructor is not helpfull ( he might be a good aviator but a good cfi ?) is he the correct one for you?.
If you are hung up on Boots\ Shoes\ trainers look for some with rolled heels,
(like car race shoes.)
BUT I bet the neuron path is the closest explaination.
Feet are the most difficult part to cordinate, for me it was a real problem, some say it still is
"The 180 on landing" been there done that, I was made to pick up and do it again, again, again, slowly, the reason given, "and the instructor was correct," was that I dumped collective without pedal input due to the brain overload, and a wish to be on the ground NOW.
Whatever people tell you flying the Helio is one of the most difficult things you will ever do, why do you think you will be in full controle after 12 hours?
More hours\training regular flights 1 hour, then a break if possable, then another hour.
Your brain is trying to assimulate a whole new way of doing things, spatial awareness, physical feeling, motor reflexes etc. if the instructor is not helpfull ( he might be a good aviator but a good cfi ?) is he the correct one for you?.
Last edited by 500e; 30th May 2007 at 21:52. Reason: dislexic I think
Definitely too tense on the pedals. Your upper air work is fine and most probably because you are more relaxed and you tense up near the ground, a very common fault in the beginning.
It may also be that you are looking way too close in when the ground is close to you, down near your feet. Try driving your car like that and you will be all over the place. Look "down the road" in the hover for a reference.
Lifting your right foot off completely and doing spot turns both left and right using only your left foot will quickly teach you to relax your legs and that you don't need to push hard on the pedals. You will realise how much you are pushing one foot against the other.
If your instructor hasn't mentioned (1) being too tense, (2) where you are looking and (3) tried the left foot only excercise, get a new instructor before deciding to give it away. It is their fault and not yours.
Shoes are also important, but the aircraft is only going to respond to the input you provide. It will never be a good response if you can't see what needs doing and then can't smoothly and accurately provide the input that is required.
It may also be that you are looking way too close in when the ground is close to you, down near your feet. Try driving your car like that and you will be all over the place. Look "down the road" in the hover for a reference.
Lifting your right foot off completely and doing spot turns both left and right using only your left foot will quickly teach you to relax your legs and that you don't need to push hard on the pedals. You will realise how much you are pushing one foot against the other.
If your instructor hasn't mentioned (1) being too tense, (2) where you are looking and (3) tried the left foot only excercise, get a new instructor before deciding to give it away. It is their fault and not yours.
Shoes are also important, but the aircraft is only going to respond to the input you provide. It will never be a good response if you can't see what needs doing and then can't smoothly and accurately provide the input that is required.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Here and there...
Age: 58
Posts: 854
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not trying to be flippant with this comment, but I once overheard a high time instructor telling his student at a debriefing that..
"what you need to do is un-clench your arsehole and stop trying to chew a hole in the seat cushion".
The student took this to heart and reported the next flight as a revelation!
PS, I'm an AME so it may not work and the standard disclaimers all apply.
"what you need to do is un-clench your arsehole and stop trying to chew a hole in the seat cushion".
The student took this to heart and reported the next flight as a revelation!
PS, I'm an AME so it may not work and the standard disclaimers all apply.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,583
Received 441 Likes
on
233 Posts
Having had a little joke at your expense, I agree that the problem probably isn't so much to do with your shoes as with nervous tension in your legs/feet/ankles/brain.
Just change to lighter shoes*, try to relax and it will all come to you.
P. S. If it helps you to know, I still have to work hard at the balance in some types of heli and I've been doing it since 1978..........
*Not ballet shoes, mind - that's possibly going a bit too far.
Just change to lighter shoes*, try to relax and it will all come to you.
P. S. If it helps you to know, I still have to work hard at the balance in some types of heli and I've been doing it since 1978..........
*Not ballet shoes, mind - that's possibly going a bit too far.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Afrique da sud
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
unclench
Had a real laugh at that - anyone watching me dismount after the last lesson and try and take my first few steps would have noticed a distinct limp as I had a cramp in my upper bum area roundabout where my right hamstring joins my arse. Dudes I must stop reading this stuff and try make some money so that I can pay for lesson later in week - I feel a whole lot better and will do some more hovering turns with as little right pressure as possible so that I get more instinctive and do it all with the old work shoes and then go for another approach and landing drill.
Fly a circuit with the instructor covering the pedals for the transition to forward flight then both of you just put your feet flat on the floor until you next land. The instructor will probably have his feet 'hovering' over the pedals before landing, but when you can do that, you won't even remember the time you had problems in the hover. 
Get exercise 6,7,8 sorted first though. Use this order of things:- crawl, walk, run!!! No other way when trying to fly a helicopter for the first few lessons.
Get exercise 6,7,8 sorted first though. Use this order of things:- crawl, walk, run!!! No other way when trying to fly a helicopter for the first few lessons.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my third transition (landing) last lesson left me 180 degrees the wrong way
1) Frustration. You've probably got the upper air work and possibly the transition from hover to forward flight roughly right, so why is this holding you up?
2) Exhaustion and overload. It's right at the end of the circuit. You've done loads of unfamiliar stuff in the last ten minutes, and now you've got the most difficult bit to do.
3) Fear. Your instructor is probably on at you about carb heat, aiming points, going forward and down, looking out for other aircraft etc. It's just dawning on you that this stuff is potentially dangerous.
4) Up until now you'll have rarely made any large pedal movements; it's all very gentle. But now, as you come to a hover, you lose translational lift. This means you need a big movement of the collective, which means you have to have an equally big pedal movement. Was it in coming to the hover that you had your 180 degree turn; it wasn't clear? Anyway, there are two ways of coping with this...
a) Just practise till you get it right.
b) Slow down and pull in power gradually, and if your instructor doesn't mind, come to a hover-taxi rather than a hover, then slow down to a hover. It's all a lot gentler and easier, and gives you time to think.
5) The main reason for all of the above....
You are trying to run before you can even stand, let alone walk. Relax. The people who find helicopter flying easiest (correction...least horrendously difficult) are the ones who don't try to hard, who aren't ambitious or success orientated, but just have a laugh and enjoy it. 12 hours is nothing, and practice is all it takes.
So....have fun!
I bought a pair of military flying boots whilst doing my cpl training from Haynes and Cann of Northampton, bloody brill. Now on my third pair, they have never let me down. Plenty of feel and loads of support around the ankle. A pair of "seconds" delivered cost aprox £57. They normally cost around £150 plus VAT but I cannot find anything wrong with there seconds.
rtrnewboy - LWAAPAM
It stands for Look Well Ahead And Pick A Marker.
Overcontrolling in yaw in the hover is usually because you are looking in the wrong place - have you been taught to look at the 2 0'clock daisy or the hover attitude? If it is the 2 o'clock daisy then no wonder you are having problems.
Equally if you tend to look too close to the aircraft the hover will suffer.
Look into the distance and use hover attitude and markers and I am sure it will help.
The other top tip is to relax - if you are too tense your strongest leg will over power the weaker one causing yaw in the strong direction. I once tried to take control from a student in a steep turn who had both his legs locked out, no wonder he was struggling with balance control! Humming or singing might p8ss your instructor off but it might help you to chill out a bit and relax if that is your problem.
Good luck - I fly in boots but I reckon deck shoes might be best for you!
It stands for Look Well Ahead And Pick A Marker.
Overcontrolling in yaw in the hover is usually because you are looking in the wrong place - have you been taught to look at the 2 0'clock daisy or the hover attitude? If it is the 2 o'clock daisy then no wonder you are having problems.
Equally if you tend to look too close to the aircraft the hover will suffer.
Look into the distance and use hover attitude and markers and I am sure it will help.
The other top tip is to relax - if you are too tense your strongest leg will over power the weaker one causing yaw in the strong direction. I once tried to take control from a student in a steep turn who had both his legs locked out, no wonder he was struggling with balance control! Humming or singing might p8ss your instructor off but it might help you to chill out a bit and relax if that is your problem.
Good luck - I fly in boots but I reckon deck shoes might be best for you!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,583
Received 441 Likes
on
233 Posts
Yeh, don't look at 2 o'clock Daisy. Or even half past one Rose. In fact, stay out of the nightclubs altogether and get some more sleep, it'll help with the flying.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Republic of Trinidad and Tobago
Age: 79
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rtnewboy:
I started flying a few decades ago with combat boots. Not my first choice, but they were paying. Adequate for the tropics.
Then to the Northern US. Required, with big socks.
Next to the tropics, civilian. Whatever you could afford.
Then to the Gulf of Mexico. Depends on the season.
Finally, back to the tropics, better paid.
I have a pair of Clarks, Gore-Tex, so I laugh at the puddles during Rainy Season. I just purchased a pair of Geoxx, Respika. Split rubber soles with the sweat holes in the bottom. Very light on the feet.
SirVivr
PS. One Maint. Supr. entered in the book after a write-up about High-Freq vibrations, that the Pilot had thin-soled shoes.
That Co. is on the down-side.
Comments about my "Pimp Shoes" come from low time, uneducated people that are slaves to the fashion trend.
Whatever works best for you.
I started flying a few decades ago with combat boots. Not my first choice, but they were paying. Adequate for the tropics.
Then to the Northern US. Required, with big socks.
Next to the tropics, civilian. Whatever you could afford.
Then to the Gulf of Mexico. Depends on the season.
Finally, back to the tropics, better paid.
I have a pair of Clarks, Gore-Tex, so I laugh at the puddles during Rainy Season. I just purchased a pair of Geoxx, Respika. Split rubber soles with the sweat holes in the bottom. Very light on the feet.
SirVivr
PS. One Maint. Supr. entered in the book after a write-up about High-Freq vibrations, that the Pilot had thin-soled shoes.
That Co. is on the down-side.
Comments about my "Pimp Shoes" come from low time, uneducated people that are slaves to the fashion trend.
Whatever works best for you.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Afrique da sud
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
humbled
Thanks to all of you for your responses - both humbled and amused. Ok so shoes dont matter - basically everything except barefoot is the just of it. Cognitive processes a big part and for me fear the biggest really and pressing too hard. I will ask for another 1/2 hr hovering and try and feel a bit less pressure with the same control (lifting right foot tip) and then go for the transitions. I fish tailed and didnt push forward enough as I was sure I would plough a hole in the runway so we ballooned a bit but the keeping straight is what made me jerk up and the landing got progressively worse - beautiful approach and changes of speed and the from about 40 ft up a complete b... up which is why I definitely will not say anything about my wingman - as far as I am concerned he's saved our lives and Frank Robinsons reputation 4 times in one day. Tomorrow weather permitting another bash and some introspection.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok so shoes dont matter - basically everything except barefoot is the just of it
These are my boots! And just to make certain pilots really jealous; I have two pairs - one black, one brown!
Cheers
Whirls
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Afrique da sud
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree Whirls - my shoes based on whats been said are fine - they are flat boxing racing driver type and are not that sticky. I will try others - not as plush as yours, they will roll around the ground if I rocked up in a pair of those. Your long post was spot on and my problems were mainly on the forward flight to hover transition albeit I did struggle with the hovering before that with the feet issue which is why I worried about the shoes.