"28 weeks later" - Gazelle - questions
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I believe there were a number of people registering Gazelles in Swaziland a while back, to get around the c of a issue. I seem to remember the CAA stamping down on that?
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Yes, 3 Gazelle's have had a brief spell on the Swaziland register...
G-CBJZ - originally XZ932 then onto 3D-HGW, then onto G-
G-BZDW - originally ZB626, onto the G- for a year, then 3D-HVW from July 2001 until Feb 2002, then back to G-BZDW.
G-BZDV - originally XW884, onto the G- for a year, then 3D-HXL from July 2001 until Feb 2002, then back to G-BZDW.
I wonder if the new Isle of Man register will take permit aircraft? and if so, whether this will be a route for this type of aircraft?
Also, not a 100% sure fire way of identification, you can usually spot a civilian built Gazelle by the fact that it normally has a cover over the tail rotor drive shaft & the military built ones do not.
G-CBJZ - originally XZ932 then onto 3D-HGW, then onto G-
G-BZDW - originally ZB626, onto the G- for a year, then 3D-HVW from July 2001 until Feb 2002, then back to G-BZDW.
G-BZDV - originally XW884, onto the G- for a year, then 3D-HXL from July 2001 until Feb 2002, then back to G-BZDW.
I wonder if the new Isle of Man register will take permit aircraft? and if so, whether this will be a route for this type of aircraft?
Also, not a 100% sure fire way of identification, you can usually spot a civilian built Gazelle by the fact that it normally has a cover over the tail rotor drive shaft & the military built ones do not.
Last edited by MPR; 17th May 2007 at 14:33. Reason: spelling!
The CAA AAN seems to shed some light on the stretched Gazelle.
It appears that there are actually two versions of the stretched Gaz!!!!!!
Firstly there is an Aerospatiale mod 341.MR.0480. This is acceptable to the CAA.
Secondly there is the American stc which is said to be "similar" to the french mod. However to be acceptable to the CAA this has to be shown to be in compliance with the French mod.
How many came off the production line like this and how many were modified in the field I do not know.
It appears that there are actually two versions of the stretched Gaz!!!!!!
Firstly there is an Aerospatiale mod 341.MR.0480. This is acceptable to the CAA.
Secondly there is the American stc which is said to be "similar" to the french mod. However to be acceptable to the CAA this has to be shown to be in compliance with the French mod.
How many came off the production line like this and how many were modified in the field I do not know.
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idle stop
your post
[It seems that a few UK Permit Gazelles are going onto the Hungarian reg, since the Hungarians are more accommodating over full Cs of A. So much for a common JAR/EASA standard!]
incorrect reports like yours can cause problems with the uk caa[like mws swaziland register gazelles ]There are no ex uk military permit gazelles on the hungarian register and there will never be the hungarians will not allow them
if you know of any [which there isnt anyway ]please post the serial /reg numbers or pm me and i will post with the owners permission
to make things easy for you there are 3 ha reg gazelles in the uk
halfm
halfq
happy
there are some allo 2s as well
also The yugoslavians dont accept ex uk permit military gazelles either but they will give full c of a to there own manufactured gazelles after overhaul
picture of HA-LFQ 342
picture of HA-LFM 341
picture of HA-LFZ
HA-PPC and HA-LFQ
sorry no pics of HA-PPY 341 on digital camera just photos
your post
[It seems that a few UK Permit Gazelles are going onto the Hungarian reg, since the Hungarians are more accommodating over full Cs of A. So much for a common JAR/EASA standard!]
incorrect reports like yours can cause problems with the uk caa[like mws swaziland register gazelles ]There are no ex uk military permit gazelles on the hungarian register and there will never be the hungarians will not allow them
if you know of any [which there isnt anyway ]please post the serial /reg numbers or pm me and i will post with the owners permission
to make things easy for you there are 3 ha reg gazelles in the uk
halfm
halfq
happy
there are some allo 2s as well
also The yugoslavians dont accept ex uk permit military gazelles either but they will give full c of a to there own manufactured gazelles after overhaul
picture of HA-LFQ 342
picture of HA-LFM 341
picture of HA-LFZ
HA-PPC and HA-LFQ
sorry no pics of HA-PPY 341 on digital camera just photos
Last edited by md 600 driver; 17th May 2007 at 18:55.
yeah, in "28 weeks" it looked relatively believable.
maybe the pilot they used is here on pprune? care to enlighten us?!
maybe the pilot they used is here on pprune? care to enlighten us?!
I'm not sure of the specifics of the Gazelle/Ex-military C of A deal, but I do know that the vast majority of private Gazelles that I have seen recently have all been flying on Yugoslav registrations.
And yes, as a general rule, the use of helicopters in films tends to be in utterly implausible situations, especially if the film in question is a Bond movie!
md600:
Paranoid, are we?
I did see a Hungarian Reg Gazelle a month or so ago at a South Eastern UK airfield and am only passing on in this Forum what a reputable source told me about some ex UK mil machines.
I do not, however, know exactly the provenance of the Gazelle I actually saw, so I will not comment further.
Paranoid, are we?
I did see a Hungarian Reg Gazelle a month or so ago at a South Eastern UK airfield and am only passing on in this Forum what a reputable source told me about some ex UK mil machines.
I do not, however, know exactly the provenance of the Gazelle I actually saw, so I will not comment further.
Re the 'paranoia' and keeping the CAA off Gazelle owners backs: I think the super large text in md600's post speaks for itself.
I repeat, I had previously no reason to doubt the information I was given, since that came from a very reputable source. However, I am happy to accept what md600 says. That is what discussion in these pages is all about: being better informed.
The Gazelle is a great aircraft. I have about 1100 hours on type, mostly instructing, and a long time ago now. It is a shame that the Permit limitations on ex UK mil Gazelles are as they are. If another ICAO State is willing to register one of these aircraft with a full CofA, then that is their prerogative.
I repeat, I had previously no reason to doubt the information I was given, since that came from a very reputable source. However, I am happy to accept what md600 says. That is what discussion in these pages is all about: being better informed.
The Gazelle is a great aircraft. I have about 1100 hours on type, mostly instructing, and a long time ago now. It is a shame that the Permit limitations on ex UK mil Gazelles are as they are. If another ICAO State is willing to register one of these aircraft with a full CofA, then that is their prerogative.
For an aircraft to be issued with a C of A it has to be included on the Civil Type Certificate. The UK Military Gazelle variants are not included on the TC therefore cannot qualify for a C of A hence the only option is a Permit.
There is an interesting piece in the American type cert for the Alouette 2
If you wish to apply for a c of a in the USA after 2004 and the aircraft has a military history you have to supply documentary proof that the aircraft conformed to a civil standard at the time of delivery to the military.
Try finding a record of that.
So it isnt just here that there is a clamp on ex military aircraft.
It is true that there is no type cert for the SA341B (Army Gazelle).
I reckon the only way would be to apply for a major mod to convert the 341B to a 341G, not impossible, but the cost would be prohibative.
I believe the best way forward is to put pressure on to have some of the operating restrictions lifted. The aircraft would not be useable commercially
but at least you could make better use of it privately.
If you wish to apply for a c of a in the USA after 2004 and the aircraft has a military history you have to supply documentary proof that the aircraft conformed to a civil standard at the time of delivery to the military.
Try finding a record of that.
So it isnt just here that there is a clamp on ex military aircraft.
It is true that there is no type cert for the SA341B (Army Gazelle).
I reckon the only way would be to apply for a major mod to convert the 341B to a 341G, not impossible, but the cost would be prohibative.
I believe the best way forward is to put pressure on to have some of the operating restrictions lifted. The aircraft would not be useable commercially
but at least you could make better use of it privately.
Last edited by ericferret; 19th May 2007 at 00:00.
None of the Gazelles quoted by MD 600 were built in Hungary.
LFM was an Aerospat built 341G used by the Yugoslavian police.
LFQ was an Aerospat built 342L supplied to the Irish Army Air Corps.
PPY was a Sokol built 341H supplied to the Yugoslav Air Force that appears to have been converted to a 341G.
There were at least another 6 ex Yugoslav Airforce 341H apparently converted to 341G on the Hungarian register.
341H also show up on the Slovenian, Bosnian, and Serbian registers.
LFM was an Aerospat built 341G used by the Yugoslavian police.
LFQ was an Aerospat built 342L supplied to the Irish Army Air Corps.
PPY was a Sokol built 341H supplied to the Yugoslav Air Force that appears to have been converted to a 341G.
There were at least another 6 ex Yugoslav Airforce 341H apparently converted to 341G on the Hungarian register.
341H also show up on the Slovenian, Bosnian, and Serbian registers.
Last edited by ericferret; 19th May 2007 at 02:49.
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eric
correct give the man a cigar
in fact no gazelles were ever made in hungary halfm was the loan/training heli from aerospat to the yugos police while they were starting their own production line it then came back to the uk where it was on the uk reg for 20 plus years one of its uk owners was the test pilot school [ at cranfield ?] i did think it was a westland machine but if you say its aerospat i wouldnt argue
ive had several ex uk military gazelles on permit the permit restrictions are not too onerous for private use but improvements would be better
the ex uk mil gazelle has found its way onto a quite few registers on permits some i know about are usa,ukraine,southafrica,australia,new zealand,and they also reside on the uk g reg in a few countrys germany ,spain,france,holland in fact there are possibly more ex uk gazelles flying elsewhere than there is in the uk
thats why there is not very many for sale in the uk at the moment i know only of 2 actively for sale in the uk and 1 in the states complete with its glass cockpit
but all are permit or experimental i dont know of one that has a full cof a but eric you seem very knowelgeable may be you could find one, then we could get a copy of the type data cert used and use EASA to register it in the uk
steve
correct give the man a cigar
in fact no gazelles were ever made in hungary halfm was the loan/training heli from aerospat to the yugos police while they were starting their own production line it then came back to the uk where it was on the uk reg for 20 plus years one of its uk owners was the test pilot school [ at cranfield ?] i did think it was a westland machine but if you say its aerospat i wouldnt argue
ive had several ex uk military gazelles on permit the permit restrictions are not too onerous for private use but improvements would be better
the ex uk mil gazelle has found its way onto a quite few registers on permits some i know about are usa,ukraine,southafrica,australia,new zealand,and they also reside on the uk g reg in a few countrys germany ,spain,france,holland in fact there are possibly more ex uk gazelles flying elsewhere than there is in the uk
thats why there is not very many for sale in the uk at the moment i know only of 2 actively for sale in the uk and 1 in the states complete with its glass cockpit
but all are permit or experimental i dont know of one that has a full cof a but eric you seem very knowelgeable may be you could find one, then we could get a copy of the type data cert used and use EASA to register it in the uk
steve
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Maybe the pilot they used is here on pprune?
Hopefully Al will see this thread and tell us more about the filming.
idle stop
If another ICAO State is willing to register one of these aircraft with a full CofA, then that is their prerogative.
If what I was told is true, they even threatened to prosecute people for flying ex UK-mil Gazelles with foreign issued CofAs in UK airspace a few years ago.
H.
Spinwing,
re; the aussie ex mil squirrels that are now doing Chtr ops. The one that I have seen flying around VIC still has the mod twist grip throttle (from memory VH-ALP)
I'm pretty sure the one's that aren't flying had something to do with the books not showing up or coming with the aircraft as some of the others did.
re; the aussie ex mil squirrels that are now doing Chtr ops. The one that I have seen flying around VIC still has the mod twist grip throttle (from memory VH-ALP)
I'm pretty sure the one's that aren't flying had something to do with the books not showing up or coming with the aircraft as some of the others did.
Aerospat and Westlands used the same construction number sequence. The Westland aircraft numbers being prefixed WA/.
HA-LFM is 1301 so should be Aerospat built. The Yugoslav aircraft had a separate sequence of their own.
What is interesting is if the 341H have actually been converted to 341G standard how was it done.
I wonder if this all happened before Hungary joined EASA (assuming they are in EASA!!!).
Could be these aircraft have grandfather rights. What is for certain is they are not listed on the engineers EASA 66 type rating list. However the helicopter section of that list is probably only about 90% accurate and is still being ammended.
The Brasov built Alouette 3's and Puma's are also not listed.
HA-LFM is 1301 so should be Aerospat built. The Yugoslav aircraft had a separate sequence of their own.
What is interesting is if the 341H have actually been converted to 341G standard how was it done.
I wonder if this all happened before Hungary joined EASA (assuming they are in EASA!!!).
Could be these aircraft have grandfather rights. What is for certain is they are not listed on the engineers EASA 66 type rating list. However the helicopter section of that list is probably only about 90% accurate and is still being ammended.
The Brasov built Alouette 3's and Puma's are also not listed.
