Helicopter missing after Chelsea v Liverpool match
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mention of 'thick mist' (?) on recent video at
http://www.peterboroughet.co.uk/news?articleid=2847554
http://www.peterboroughet.co.uk/news?articleid=2847554
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those not familiar with the METARS
EGXT 020050Z AUTO 02011KT 5000NDV BR BKN002/// 07/07 Q1017=
Location: EGXT
Day of month: 02
Time: 00:50 UTC
Report is fully automated, with no human intervention or oversight
Wind: True direction = 020 degrees, Speed: 11 knots
Visibility: 5000 m (2.7 NM) with No Directional Variation possible due AUTO
Weather: Mist
Clouds: Broken sky , 5-7/8 at 200 feet above aerodrome level
Temperature: 07 degrees Celsius
Dewpoint: 07 degrees Celsius
QNH (Sea-level pressure): 1017 hPa
One hour earlier it was 8/8 at 200 feet.
Hard graft in anyones book.
EGXT 020050Z AUTO 02011KT 5000NDV BR BKN002/// 07/07 Q1017=
Location: EGXT
Day of month: 02
Time: 00:50 UTC
Report is fully automated, with no human intervention or oversight
Wind: True direction = 020 degrees, Speed: 11 knots
Visibility: 5000 m (2.7 NM) with No Directional Variation possible due AUTO
Weather: Mist
Clouds: Broken sky , 5-7/8 at 200 feet above aerodrome level
Temperature: 07 degrees Celsius
Dewpoint: 07 degrees Celsius
QNH (Sea-level pressure): 1017 hPa
One hour earlier it was 8/8 at 200 feet.
Hard graft in anyones book.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can we please try to keep any comments factual.
I knew and respected Steve and whilst a discussion may be prudent in the fullness of time, to help avoid future incidents, IMHO it is inappropriate at this time for those without the full facts to be passing judgement.
Mods - Is there no way the 9 o'clock jury can be silenced??????
I knew and respected Steve and whilst a discussion may be prudent in the fullness of time, to help avoid future incidents, IMHO it is inappropriate at this time for those without the full facts to be passing judgement.
Mods - Is there no way the 9 o'clock jury can be silenced??????
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The weather is pretty factual - Pretty much the major fact IMHO
The near full moon last night at around midnight would have made any reduction in viz a LOT worse
The near full moon last night at around midnight would have made any reduction in viz a LOT worse
Last edited by Letsby Avenue; 4th May 2007 at 22:34. Reason: Not speculating about GPS letdowns
London,
Which part of 0050 - 1 = 2350 when it was OVC002 = 8/8 which I did happen to mention was, not clear to you.
0050 -2 = 2250 BKN002 3500 HZ i.e.1.8 NM which was a human obs.
All I have done is post a translation of the METAR which a lot of posters did not seem to grasp the significance of. There is no judgement in my post.
Still hard work even in daylight if these or similar conditions prevailed at the destination.
Which part of 0050 - 1 = 2350 when it was OVC002 = 8/8 which I did happen to mention was, not clear to you.
0050 -2 = 2250 BKN002 3500 HZ i.e.1.8 NM which was a human obs.
All I have done is post a translation of the METAR which a lot of posters did not seem to grasp the significance of. There is no judgement in my post.
Still hard work even in daylight if these or similar conditions prevailed at the destination.
Last edited by RVDT; 2nd May 2007 at 19:15. Reason: Clarification
Thought we were all 'professional' here?
Weather was 'probably' near minima from the Wx reports but obviously if we weren't there then we can't really comment.
It's another Single Pilot event. Late at night (after possibly a long day already?) but not to a licensed field but to a private residence.
We shouldn't pass judgement until we have the facts but I think most of us are probably thinking the same thing. Everyone is so quick to defend but it appears that weather is nearly always a major factor.
Very sad news when another fellow pilot is lost like this but my question is why does this continue to happen?
No doubt the accident investigators will uncover the facts.
RIP guys.
Weather was 'probably' near minima from the Wx reports but obviously if we weren't there then we can't really comment.
It's another Single Pilot event. Late at night (after possibly a long day already?) but not to a licensed field but to a private residence.
We shouldn't pass judgement until we have the facts but I think most of us are probably thinking the same thing. Everyone is so quick to defend but it appears that weather is nearly always a major factor.
Very sad news when another fellow pilot is lost like this but my question is why does this continue to happen?
No doubt the accident investigators will uncover the facts.
RIP guys.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ash/article.do
The artice shows a picture of the crashed aircraft which show it on its side. The bbc were reporting that the aircraft was found "virtually intact".
Condolences to the familes,
CF
The artice shows a picture of the crashed aircraft which show it on its side. The bbc were reporting that the aircraft was found "virtually intact".
Condolences to the familes,
CF
Last edited by cyclic_fondler; 2nd May 2007 at 19:11. Reason: link details were wrong
I need to start up a separate thread regarding Charter Ops, but I am a bit shocked by their methods sometimes. I recently had a chat with some experienced charter Heli pilots who told me how they fly towards home IFR then cancel their IFR clearence and descend into the cloud around London using the GPS as the only approach aid. I understand some pilots will take this down to 300ft and if they don't see the runway, they go around.
As HeliMutt says above - "Weather was probably near minima" - Overcast at 300ft, mist, maybe 2 miles visibility, night ??? What kind of minimums's do charter pilots work with ??
I'll be honest, I've gone from the army where you get the job done, and since then I've been in the nice comfortable world of Police or Offshore where we all have the right to look out the window and say "Nope, not good enough". I shudder to think of the pressure you charter guys must be under and then on top, working single pilot, navigating, handling the radios alone - Its just too much work - Certainly for a numpty like me.
I know people don't want to speculate about this incident and I'll follow suit, but even if this was a technical fault or structural failure, surely we cannot allow operations to continue, where it is legal to fly VRF at night in this sort of weather to a 'green field' site. We lost Mathew Harding and friends, we lost Max Radford with the Yukos boss on board, and now this incident. There has to be a better code of practice, one that gives all charter pilots the same rights that I have to point to a line in a rule book and say, "sorry, it just can't legally be done".
As HeliMutt says above - "Weather was probably near minima" - Overcast at 300ft, mist, maybe 2 miles visibility, night ??? What kind of minimums's do charter pilots work with ??
I'll be honest, I've gone from the army where you get the job done, and since then I've been in the nice comfortable world of Police or Offshore where we all have the right to look out the window and say "Nope, not good enough". I shudder to think of the pressure you charter guys must be under and then on top, working single pilot, navigating, handling the radios alone - Its just too much work - Certainly for a numpty like me.
I know people don't want to speculate about this incident and I'll follow suit, but even if this was a technical fault or structural failure, surely we cannot allow operations to continue, where it is legal to fly VRF at night in this sort of weather to a 'green field' site. We lost Mathew Harding and friends, we lost Max Radford with the Yukos boss on board, and now this incident. There has to be a better code of practice, one that gives all charter pilots the same rights that I have to point to a line in a rule book and say, "sorry, it just can't legally be done".
Special 25, I have started a new thread and lets discuss the merits and demerits of single pilot ops at night and weather minima for public transport. (Was this flight being done as 'public transport' to a private landing site at night)
?
?
As the captain of the aircraft you can always so no but it may not go down well with the boss or bill payer in the back. This is still no excuse to go beyond the limits but it will always be a factor in the commercial market where sometimes money is tight.
We all like to get the job done but I believe in the corporate/commercial side of the industry getting the job done means bill payed, happy customer, possibly repeat business etc etc.
It's a tough way of looking at it but it happens and until helicopters become so cheap to operate that any tom dick or harry can afford to travel by them then we will always have people trying to earn a living having to fly in the **** sometimes to complete the job.
It's very sad what has happened but this will happen again and again unfortunately.
We all like to get the job done but I believe in the corporate/commercial side of the industry getting the job done means bill payed, happy customer, possibly repeat business etc etc.
It's a tough way of looking at it but it happens and until helicopters become so cheap to operate that any tom dick or harry can afford to travel by them then we will always have people trying to earn a living having to fly in the **** sometimes to complete the job.
It's very sad what has happened but this will happen again and again unfortunately.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the Edge!
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi helimutt...just for the record. This flight would most likely have been conducted under the banner of 'private' as the owner of the machine was on board. So anything contained within the company OM would not have had to be adhered to for this flight. Therefore, carried out at the discretion of the aircraft captain. Enough said...
I would also like to pass on my sincere sympathy to Steve's family and all members of Atlas at this very sad time. I worked with Steve directly on many occasions and will find it very strange knowing I will not see him later this year. RIP Steve.
I would also like to pass on my sincere sympathy to Steve's family and all members of Atlas at this very sad time. I worked with Steve directly on many occasions and will find it very strange knowing I will not see him later this year. RIP Steve.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my house
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Presumably if there is an automated METAR available for the closest airport then there would have been a TAF as well??
If I was faced with a 200' forecast cloudbase, a private landing site with no aids,a north easterly airstream in Spring in the UK(read fog), temp and dewpoint so close or forecast to be close, my first question to the boss would have been about which hotel we were staying at.
How many holes lining up in the Cheese do you need before you say no. I am presuming it was an IFR 355F2??
If I was faced with a 200' forecast cloudbase, a private landing site with no aids,a north easterly airstream in Spring in the UK(read fog), temp and dewpoint so close or forecast to be close, my first question to the boss would have been about which hotel we were staying at.
How many holes lining up in the Cheese do you need before you say no. I am presuming it was an IFR 355F2??
Never let the worry of changing employment ever get in the way of saying "No!"
It is far better to find yourself on the dole vice being the star attraction at a Wake.
Set thine limits and stick to them.....weather checks are done by telephone or laptop....never in the air.
When his Nibs puts pressure on you....do like Ma Reagan said....."Just say "NO!"
It is far better to find yourself on the dole vice being the star attraction at a Wake.
Set thine limits and stick to them.....weather checks are done by telephone or laptop....never in the air.
When his Nibs puts pressure on you....do like Ma Reagan said....."Just say "NO!"