Mosquito helicopter
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Why's that Helofan? Did the R22's designer die in one?
Or when the Helicycle went through certification, did journo's worldwide run articles about how it was a safer bet than the Robinson design? Oh, sorry, forgot, the Helicycle isn't certified. And never will be.
A little like the Rotorway, the Helicycle's designers previous machine. No, I'm not about to go strapping a Rotorway to my arse either. You can keep that.
I'm not a Helicopter engineer or designer, but I am an engineer in my day job, and when I saw 'A chopper is born' on TV, I remember watching that Rotorway going together and spotting what were, IMHO, some less than confidence inspiring ways in the way that machine was designed. Maybe I'm wrong, and they were right, but its my butt that'd be sitting in it, so no thanks to that either.
Clarify your question a little Helofan, and if I can provide you with an answer, then I will. Because lets face it, what were you actually asking?
Untill then, maybe you should just start a Robby bashing thread if thats where you were hoping to go with it, and focus on how every low volume, shed built helicopter is obviously better than the R22 by miles. I'm sure the usual suspects will give you big thumbs up on it.
Or when the Helicycle went through certification, did journo's worldwide run articles about how it was a safer bet than the Robinson design? Oh, sorry, forgot, the Helicycle isn't certified. And never will be.
A little like the Rotorway, the Helicycle's designers previous machine. No, I'm not about to go strapping a Rotorway to my arse either. You can keep that.
I'm not a Helicopter engineer or designer, but I am an engineer in my day job, and when I saw 'A chopper is born' on TV, I remember watching that Rotorway going together and spotting what were, IMHO, some less than confidence inspiring ways in the way that machine was designed. Maybe I'm wrong, and they were right, but its my butt that'd be sitting in it, so no thanks to that either.
Clarify your question a little Helofan, and if I can provide you with an answer, then I will. Because lets face it, what were you actually asking?
Untill then, maybe you should just start a Robby bashing thread if thats where you were hoping to go with it, and focus on how every low volume, shed built helicopter is obviously better than the R22 by miles. I'm sure the usual suspects will give you big thumbs up on it.
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Touchy touchy Chukka, good thing there are no knife weilding smilies to choose from here eh , else i'd be looking like 
Nope wasnt a R22 bashing thread or a hook to starting one.
I was just interested to see what IYHO was what you considered a safe helicopter when it came to small helicopters, why the R22 did I choose to ask ... because it was mentioned in this thread ...maybe if someone had said something about their Rotorway, I would have asked you if you would have flown that..... it was a question not a dig...sheese
Also being a engineer, I dont like the way some small helicopters are put together either, it just seems a little too basic for me too.
Now, saying that I would not like to fly the Helicycle or the Rotorway either.
I liked that show A Chopper Is Born , that guy has some skills..humor..tools...cash LOL.
So much fun the helicycles designer died in one/Why did the R22's designer die in one?.... LMAO what the hell was that supposed to mean LOL
smartass.
No Frank is alive and kicking, infact met him at a party last month in florida and spoke in detail of the R22 and other small personal ( non trainer designed) helicopters, in regards to design issues positives and negatives.
Though having pointed that out that the designer died in the helicycle ( I didnt know that , interesting regardless of how coldy you offer the info ), The R22 has an amazing safety record as well doesnt it.
And as stated by Frank, the R22 was not intended for training in mind , it was designed to be a cheap personal helicopter for experienced pilots.
Besides it seems that alot of the designers dont put their butt in an aircraft they design, they employ test pilots that are involved in the design processes that risk ( and at times, lose their lives testing aircraft ) then designs are improved and retested and so on and so forth.. blah blah blah.
SO to spell out the question you took so darn personally if you still are missing the point of the original question... Does this mean that because there was a death in the helicycle you would not fly the R22 due to that fact that there have been the odd death in that aircraft?
I think you could put down the gloves and just have a conversation like the rest of the big kids.
HF
Nope wasnt a R22 bashing thread or a hook to starting one.
I was just interested to see what IYHO was what you considered a safe helicopter when it came to small helicopters, why the R22 did I choose to ask ... because it was mentioned in this thread ...maybe if someone had said something about their Rotorway, I would have asked you if you would have flown that..... it was a question not a dig...sheese
Also being a engineer, I dont like the way some small helicopters are put together either, it just seems a little too basic for me too.
Now, saying that I would not like to fly the Helicycle or the Rotorway either.
I liked that show A Chopper Is Born , that guy has some skills..humor..tools...cash LOL
. So much fun the helicycles designer died in one/Why did the R22's designer die in one?.... LMAO what the hell was that supposed to mean LOL
smartass.No Frank is alive and kicking, infact met him at a party last month in florida and spoke in detail of the R22 and other small personal ( non trainer designed) helicopters, in regards to design issues positives and negatives.
Though having pointed that out that the designer died in the helicycle ( I didnt know that , interesting regardless of how coldy you offer the info ), The R22 has an amazing safety record as well doesnt it.
And as stated by Frank, the R22 was not intended for training in mind , it was designed to be a cheap personal helicopter for experienced pilots.
Besides it seems that alot of the designers dont put their butt in an aircraft they design, they employ test pilots that are involved in the design processes that risk ( and at times, lose their lives testing aircraft ) then designs are improved and retested and so on and so forth.. blah blah blah.
SO to spell out the question you took so darn personally if you still are missing the point of the original question... Does this mean that because there was a death in the helicycle you would not fly the R22 due to that fact that there have been the odd death in that aircraft?
I think you could put down the gloves and just have a conversation like the rest of the big kids.
HF
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HF,
I had a long and very detailed, hyperlinked reply typed out, but when I went to post the same, the site decided I wasn’t logged in after all and it disappeared into the ether. So here is the substantially abridged version, as I am now very short of time. We can continue later though if you wish.
Firstly, you bet a horse on form, and your form is to slate the Robinson product, in the slyest of ways, in other threads, without ever coming right out and saying it. You even do the same again when you mention the R22 safety record in the context placed upon it with the use of your Smiley in your last post. Hence why you received it with the ‘gloves off’ from me before. My lost reply contained links to some of your previous postings where this occurred, so please, a little less of the righteous indignation if you will. You’re not entitled by a long shot.
As to the fact you take umbrage to the way I informed you of the death of Schramm in a Helicycle, I can only apologise, I thought you would have known. It was rather headline news in the kit industry at the time. I see now from your public profile that you are a student pilot, so that would explain why you may have missed it. Apologies if you found my way of breaking it to you shocking or cruel. It was not meant with that intent. Let us move on.
With regards to the actual question you get round to asking (finally, as I wasn’t psychic enough to get it from the first post!) , why do I feel safe in an R22 and not, say, a Helicycle?
Okay, let’s have a look at it. When I looked at the Helicycle, what did I see? I see a machine designed by a well meaning man who had been allured into using a power plant that is totally unsuitable for the job – indeed, the US Military found the same when they tested it for that purpose 40+ years ago. I have faith in the US Military’s technical ability. Also, if you look at the design of its other components, I felt I could see factors which I simply wasn’t happy with. But hey, it’s a one man machine, and if I’m the type to err on the side of caution, then that’s my decision, and not yours. Go for it. My hind end will NOT be seated in one however.
The same goes for that other favourite also, the Rotorway. Not a hope. That’s again based on engineering decisions. Have a look at the amount of accidents of the type on the UK register. Even the approved test pilot has been known to put them back to kit form on first flight.
Now, with the R22, well, what can I say that others far more qualified than I haven’t? Nothing, that’s what. It is a machine that’s built to a good standard, its strong enough where it needs to be (and it is. Very. Ever seen the Aussie mustering boys throw it around?), has few vices and can go between major services without ever seeing a spanner. Although, if your of malicious intent when it comes to paperwork, that can also contribute to bent machines. That all on board, in summary, is a good helicopter. Seems that’s the view with the rest of the world as well. He’s sold a few has Frank. The problems your thinking of came when it was new, and newish, because people simply didn’t understand its limitations – it doesn’t have much Rotor inertia, and it doesn’t do neg G. Hence why people thought they could treat it like they treated other helicopters (that were 5 times the price and maintenance, usually provided during military service where they learned to fly) and got bitten, Badly. Sadly, some people continue to be bitten because they keep making the same mistakes. As I once read in a piece written by Sir (as far as I’m concerned anyways) John Farley, ‘there are no new ways to kill yourself in aviation’. He sure could have been talking about the ‘22 in that context, you can bet on that. If you are still a student pilot HF, may I recommend the Helicopter Concepts DVD; as well as being of excellent content of subject matter, they also show the figures on R22 accidents. Basically, the vast majority of accidents are down to people getting it wrong, not the machine. Sadly though, it’s almost always the machine that gets the stick. My opinion is, especially when you look at the accidents breakdown, is that people get either to familiar and ask it to go outside its design envelope, or a sheer lack of currency on the airframe bites them. Fact is, it’s cheaper to die than to spend money with an instructor every 6 months for a pair of hours getting a thorough beasting to see if your still as good as you think you are. I’ll go the expensive route with the instructor, at least then I know I’m capable. My ego can more than take it.
In short HF, I’d fly an R22 all day, no worries. I trust it, and I know its limitations, and that’s what makes a happy marriage.
Moving on to your point on ‘designers not flying what they create’, so what? That’s an absolute non point if ever there was. Designers design, Professional Pilots fly. I spent long enough in the Nuclear Industry working with designers who had never even been near a live plant, but why should they, that was my job? They draw it, I fix it. End of story. Worked well enough. Yet to see an unscheduled sunrise on anything I had my hands on!
Hope all that answers your questions of me HF, and as you sound like a man who is talking himself into a Helicycle, then sincerely, good luck, I hope it works out for you. Be a dry old world were we all the same.
I had a long and very detailed, hyperlinked reply typed out, but when I went to post the same, the site decided I wasn’t logged in after all and it disappeared into the ether. So here is the substantially abridged version, as I am now very short of time. We can continue later though if you wish.
Firstly, you bet a horse on form, and your form is to slate the Robinson product, in the slyest of ways, in other threads, without ever coming right out and saying it. You even do the same again when you mention the R22 safety record in the context placed upon it with the use of your Smiley in your last post. Hence why you received it with the ‘gloves off’ from me before. My lost reply contained links to some of your previous postings where this occurred, so please, a little less of the righteous indignation if you will. You’re not entitled by a long shot.
As to the fact you take umbrage to the way I informed you of the death of Schramm in a Helicycle, I can only apologise, I thought you would have known. It was rather headline news in the kit industry at the time. I see now from your public profile that you are a student pilot, so that would explain why you may have missed it. Apologies if you found my way of breaking it to you shocking or cruel. It was not meant with that intent. Let us move on.
With regards to the actual question you get round to asking (finally, as I wasn’t psychic enough to get it from the first post!) , why do I feel safe in an R22 and not, say, a Helicycle?
Okay, let’s have a look at it. When I looked at the Helicycle, what did I see? I see a machine designed by a well meaning man who had been allured into using a power plant that is totally unsuitable for the job – indeed, the US Military found the same when they tested it for that purpose 40+ years ago. I have faith in the US Military’s technical ability. Also, if you look at the design of its other components, I felt I could see factors which I simply wasn’t happy with. But hey, it’s a one man machine, and if I’m the type to err on the side of caution, then that’s my decision, and not yours. Go for it. My hind end will NOT be seated in one however.
The same goes for that other favourite also, the Rotorway. Not a hope. That’s again based on engineering decisions. Have a look at the amount of accidents of the type on the UK register. Even the approved test pilot has been known to put them back to kit form on first flight.
Now, with the R22, well, what can I say that others far more qualified than I haven’t? Nothing, that’s what. It is a machine that’s built to a good standard, its strong enough where it needs to be (and it is. Very. Ever seen the Aussie mustering boys throw it around?), has few vices and can go between major services without ever seeing a spanner. Although, if your of malicious intent when it comes to paperwork, that can also contribute to bent machines. That all on board, in summary, is a good helicopter. Seems that’s the view with the rest of the world as well. He’s sold a few has Frank. The problems your thinking of came when it was new, and newish, because people simply didn’t understand its limitations – it doesn’t have much Rotor inertia, and it doesn’t do neg G. Hence why people thought they could treat it like they treated other helicopters (that were 5 times the price and maintenance, usually provided during military service where they learned to fly) and got bitten, Badly. Sadly, some people continue to be bitten because they keep making the same mistakes. As I once read in a piece written by Sir (as far as I’m concerned anyways) John Farley, ‘there are no new ways to kill yourself in aviation’. He sure could have been talking about the ‘22 in that context, you can bet on that. If you are still a student pilot HF, may I recommend the Helicopter Concepts DVD; as well as being of excellent content of subject matter, they also show the figures on R22 accidents. Basically, the vast majority of accidents are down to people getting it wrong, not the machine. Sadly though, it’s almost always the machine that gets the stick. My opinion is, especially when you look at the accidents breakdown, is that people get either to familiar and ask it to go outside its design envelope, or a sheer lack of currency on the airframe bites them. Fact is, it’s cheaper to die than to spend money with an instructor every 6 months for a pair of hours getting a thorough beasting to see if your still as good as you think you are. I’ll go the expensive route with the instructor, at least then I know I’m capable. My ego can more than take it.
In short HF, I’d fly an R22 all day, no worries. I trust it, and I know its limitations, and that’s what makes a happy marriage.
Moving on to your point on ‘designers not flying what they create’, so what? That’s an absolute non point if ever there was. Designers design, Professional Pilots fly. I spent long enough in the Nuclear Industry working with designers who had never even been near a live plant, but why should they, that was my job? They draw it, I fix it. End of story. Worked well enough. Yet to see an unscheduled sunrise on anything I had my hands on!
Hope all that answers your questions of me HF, and as you sound like a man who is talking himself into a Helicycle, then sincerely, good luck, I hope it works out for you. Be a dry old world were we all the same.
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Nice, though no I am not a helicycle man.
Just something else to stand back poke a little fun at/admire and wonder.
As interesting as they all seem, I agree my bum will never see the seat of one unless its at a show & someone bets me I will fit in it...but TO that I will never fly.
Arnt we all still students?
HF
Just something else to stand back poke a little fun at/admire and wonder.
As interesting as they all seem, I agree my bum will never see the seat of one unless its at a show & someone bets me I will fit in it...but TO that I will never fly.
Arnt we all still students?
HF
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Has there ever been a double winner from that part of the world?
Most of the winners are tourists. But there have been exceptions. Darwin is after all the town of the worlds highest beer consumption and two very unforgiving creatures from either end of the … chain/
The first is the saltwater crocodile, a common eater of tourists with a known taste for pretty fraulines, and a soap hero of the most wicked cartoonist ever methinks, ‘wicking’ of the NT news. Wicking does well with another soap hero and Darwin conquestor, ‘the dingo’ of Ayers Rock fame.
Speaking of the rock there was once a loser who attacked the pub there once with a road train, that’s the second very unforgiving creature a 150 tonne three trailer fifty metre long giant. He knocked over a few drinkers and I’m not sure if the road train didn’t end up in the truck museum in the ‘Alice’, there was some strange sequel.
In the road train stakes, a couple of tourist losers (grey nomads) indicated left with their car and caravan then turned right underneath one. To add insult to injury the ‘load’ this day was one hundred and eighty fat bullocks on their way to a pleasure cruise, who vented their displeasure all over the evidence while the coppers were arriving.
The highest achievers were THREE in one go, British damsels who drove under another road train; this one was loaded with one hundred and twenty thousand litres of high octane fuel. The damsels had shown their consideration in not smoking as there was no fire.
The exception was a drinker who wanted to buy his mate that he had picked up outside the Humpty Doo pub a beer. His mate a King Brown – one of the world’s ten most deadly snakes - most ungraciously bit him about 42 times.
Beats me how in amongst all of this there is enough intellectual room for a university in Darwin town ~ named also in honour of our famous evolutionist.
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Chukkablade
Very well said Chukka!
When HF, that topend fella and various other backstabbers have finished dumping on Frank Robinson, BJ Schramm, John Uptigrove and other hardworking and courageous designers, perhaps it would be timely to jump over to the "Hawaian helicopter crash ..." thread.
And see how a helicopter with an impressive safety record and a highly competent and experienced pilot can nonetheless crash and kill.
Ernest K gann wrote "Fate is the Hunter". Is it not still true?
When HF, that topend fella and various other backstabbers have finished dumping on Frank Robinson, BJ Schramm, John Uptigrove and other hardworking and courageous designers, perhaps it would be timely to jump over to the "Hawaian helicopter crash ..." thread.
And see how a helicopter with an impressive safety record and a highly competent and experienced pilot can nonetheless crash and kill.
Ernest K gann wrote "Fate is the Hunter". Is it not still true?
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Ernest K gann wrote "Fate is the Hunter". Is it not still true?
"Peripheral awareness is a necessity for successful helicopter pilots" Topend, April 1, 2007 and ad-nauseum.
without it you'll be the biggest fool of the day, you should get out and read more, the above says it all.
I thought chukka's comments excellent.
As far as blade design and integrity goes then Frank has a lot of current problems, which R22 owners are well aware of, many are prepared to push Frank to improve it, including me.
As far as the machine design goes, I'm quite happy to pedal around in one still after several thousand hours in them.
As far as R22 back stabbers go you should refer to 'nigelh', he is the ace of the base, or was.
Maybe you are an 'owner-operator' like him?
tet
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tet
No to "R22 owner/operator" although I have been one and yes have been happy to pedal around in one for thousands of hours.
Frank does have serious blade problems, and not for first time. But he'll fix it. He always does.
tk
Frank does have serious blade problems, and not for first time. But he'll fix it. He always does.
tk
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very good, I'll be interested to hear how it goes, as long as it's not 'Wicking' that does the reporting.
Also you should watch out for that fella they call the 'croc'. It's said that he enjoys running around spraying them skeeter things.
tet
Also you should watch out for that fella they call the 'croc'. It's said that he enjoys running around spraying them skeeter things.
tet
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