Logging IFR hours
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Europe
Logging IFR hours
A quick question:
According to the JAR-FCL compliant logbook I need to log all hours flown IFR. I recently started flying over the North Sea and all our flights are filed as IFR. Should I log all this time into this column?
I'm logging IMC seperately at the moment.
Any opinions?
Regards,
CopterD
According to the JAR-FCL compliant logbook I need to log all hours flown IFR. I recently started flying over the North Sea and all our flights are filed as IFR. Should I log all this time into this column?
I'm logging IMC seperately at the moment.
Any opinions?
Regards,
CopterD
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31
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From: Europe
Trust me, I know the difference between IFR/VFR VMC/IMC 
. The question is: How does the rest of you log their IFR column. Simply the whole flight (if you do not cancel IFR)?
Makes life a lot easier with filling in the logbook
. The question is: How does the rest of you log their IFR column. Simply the whole flight (if you do not cancel IFR)?Makes life a lot easier with filling in the logbook
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Europe
I personally only log IMC time, my logbook has a column for Instrument flying (not IFR) and as flungdung says you can be on an IFR flight plan in VMC and not flying by sole reference to instruments.
10,000 hours IFR in a coupled helicopter are worth diddly squat when you come to fly IMC in an uncoupled helicopter. I noticed how poor my handling skills were after spending years "coupled" and then having to go "uncoupled". I now feel comfortable hand flying again and only miss the coupler on long legs. Having said that I'd really like to fly a coupled helicopter now and again!
10,000 hours IFR in a coupled helicopter are worth diddly squat when you come to fly IMC in an uncoupled helicopter. I noticed how poor my handling skills were after spending years "coupled" and then having to go "uncoupled". I now feel comfortable hand flying again and only miss the coupler on long legs. Having said that I'd really like to fly a coupled helicopter now and again!
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Europe
Total flight time is Chocks to chocks, IMC time is logged as Instument flying, deck time is part of the total time.
5 minute taxi either end, 10 minute deck time, 1 hour Instrument, 2 hour flight time. Log book entry would be total time 2 hours 20 minutes with 1 hour instrument. P1 or P2 as required.
Many years ago the then Chief Pilot of BIH tried to have the ground time/taxi time deducted from log book hours. It took a letter from the CAA to point out that this was not correct.
5 minute taxi either end, 10 minute deck time, 1 hour Instrument, 2 hour flight time. Log book entry would be total time 2 hours 20 minutes with 1 hour instrument. P1 or P2 as required.
Many years ago the then Chief Pilot of BIH tried to have the ground time/taxi time deducted from log book hours. It took a letter from the CAA to point out that this was not correct.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: UK
I am not sure that what you log is sensibly the choice of the individual pilot. He/she ought to log what the regulatory regime he flies under says he/she ought to log.
JAR has got itself rather confused over IFR and IMC wrt logging time. In the UK it is further confused because UK rules require almost ALL night flying to be under IFR rules even when it is visual contact flying (i.e. VMC). For night visual contact flying in the UK you do not need an IR or an IFR equipped helicopter, even thought the flight has to be made under IFR rules.
JAR has got itself rather confused over IFR and IMC wrt logging time. In the UK it is further confused because UK rules require almost ALL night flying to be under IFR rules even when it is visual contact flying (i.e. VMC). For night visual contact flying in the UK you do not need an IR or an IFR equipped helicopter, even thought the flight has to be made under IFR rules.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Over here
In the US, we log flight time, and time on the deck simply isn't logged. Flight time is from brake release if there are wheels, or from when collective is increased to hover if there are skids. If I added deck time to my flight time, I would have several thousand more hours.
IFR time isn't something I ever considered logging. IMC time is the only thing which counts, IMO. The company has a block for logging IFR operations, but I have never used that in my logbook. I don't even know what that block is used for.
IFR time isn't something I ever considered logging. IMC time is the only thing which counts, IMO. The company has a block for logging IFR operations, but I have never used that in my logbook. I don't even know what that block is used for.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Neverland
As an ex-"Aberdeener" I can say several things. First, the regs mostly are written by people who do not understand their subject. As a result, I have about 12K hours "IFR", but my logbook shows a less than a thousand. This is because I only log "IFR" when I know I need the "clocks" to stay alive (and also because I forget to write it down). My advice always has been to look out of the window - can you fly with what you see? Yes = VFR, No = IFR, end of discussion.
What is slightly strange these days is that both pilots are required to log an Instrument Approach - it stems from the fact that they hold an Multi-Pilot Instrument Rating, and you are part of the crew so it goes in the book (but there is no way I am going back to add them all up!)
As someone has already said, what counts is if you can do it, not what the logbook says you have done before. My bottom line is that if I see a 5000 hour pilot with 1000 IFR he/she is not getting a job - this is just make-believe.
Stay safe
Zeb
What is slightly strange these days is that both pilots are required to log an Instrument Approach - it stems from the fact that they hold an Multi-Pilot Instrument Rating, and you are part of the crew so it goes in the book (but there is no way I am going back to add them all up!)
As someone has already said, what counts is if you can do it, not what the logbook says you have done before. My bottom line is that if I see a 5000 hour pilot with 1000 IFR he/she is not getting a job - this is just make-believe.
Stay safe
Zeb
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Just stick to the definitions : Rules vs Conditions
I log IFR when I'm following a needle (regardless of the weather), looking the instruments for any altitude/speed/heading change.
(that's the nearest I guess to the Instrument flight time definition of the JAR-FCL 2 : <<Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.>>)
This IFR time includes actual IMC (when the weather's bad
) and simulated IMC (under the hood for training purposes).
To Zeb :
That can lead to 3000 hours, 850 IFR (including 350 actual IMC) and that's no make-believe : just spent the last six years instructing IFR in a FTO
I log IFR when I'm following a needle (regardless of the weather), looking the instruments for any altitude/speed/heading change.
(that's the nearest I guess to the Instrument flight time definition of the JAR-FCL 2 : <<Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.>>)
This IFR time includes actual IMC (when the weather's bad
) and simulated IMC (under the hood for training purposes).To Zeb :
That can lead to 3000 hours, 850 IFR (including 350 actual IMC) and that's no make-believe : just spent the last six years instructing IFR in a FTO
Last edited by FredFri; 1st March 2007 at 18:47. Reason: Fcl definition added
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Between layers
I log IFR if I fly on a active IFR flightplan (since you can't log VFR on a active IFR flightplan and vice versa). VFR on top is still IFR with provisions.
Instrument time logged according to JAR's if on a active IFR flightplan.
Instrument time logged according to JAR's if on a active IFR flightplan.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 833
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From: Canberra, Australia
From the front page of the CASA Pilot Log Book.
Recording of Instrument Time
"A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC"
I take it this can be real IMC and simulated with foggles?
P1
Recording of Instrument Time
"A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC"
I take it this can be real IMC and simulated with foggles?
P1
Joined: Nov 2003
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3 columns
IFR - Any flight which is launched on an IFR flight plan. This is a joke column which I keep only in my computer logbook. I don't keep this in my hardcopy as it's useless.
Actual Instrument - Any portion of flight with sole reference to instruments AND on an IFR flight plan. It stands to reason, that if you are not on an IFR flight plan you should be on a VFR flight plan. If on a VFR flight plan you shouldn't in theory be doing any flight with sole reference to instruments. However....
I say this because where I fly we do a lot of flight over water with restricted visibiliy or at night, but ATC still call us VFR or SVFR. While I know that I am flying 'solely by instruments' due to no horizon or lights, the authorities won't allow us to 'log' this as IFR for the reasoning above.
Simulated Instrument - Any flight where view-limiting device is worn and flight is by sole reference to instruments.
IFR - Any flight which is launched on an IFR flight plan. This is a joke column which I keep only in my computer logbook. I don't keep this in my hardcopy as it's useless.
Actual Instrument - Any portion of flight with sole reference to instruments AND on an IFR flight plan. It stands to reason, that if you are not on an IFR flight plan you should be on a VFR flight plan. If on a VFR flight plan you shouldn't in theory be doing any flight with sole reference to instruments. However....
I say this because where I fly we do a lot of flight over water with restricted visibiliy or at night, but ATC still call us VFR or SVFR. While I know that I am flying 'solely by instruments' due to no horizon or lights, the authorities won't allow us to 'log' this as IFR for the reasoning above.
Simulated Instrument - Any flight where view-limiting device is worn and flight is by sole reference to instruments.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,012
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From: USA
voodoo2,
Please don't slip on a hood or foggles while flying passengers, you're being paid to look outside!
Regarding AI time (actual instruments, or IMC time) it is entirely possible in the US to be on a VFR flight plan and also be IMC. Lights on offshore at night is one example. You can see and avoid traffic, but you have no visual reference, therefore you are in IMC and can log it. (This also points out a hole in FAR's, since this leg offshore doesn't need an IR, nor instrument equippage, nor an IFR control system, but only the very brave should fly it without such.
Please don't slip on a hood or foggles while flying passengers, you're being paid to look outside!
Regarding AI time (actual instruments, or IMC time) it is entirely possible in the US to be on a VFR flight plan and also be IMC. Lights on offshore at night is one example. You can see and avoid traffic, but you have no visual reference, therefore you are in IMC and can log it. (This also points out a hole in FAR's, since this leg offshore doesn't need an IR, nor instrument equippage, nor an IFR control system, but only the very brave should fly it without such.