Scenario - What would YOU do?
Here we go....another runaway horse of a thread.
Why don't we do something useful and do an accident chain analysis of this flight. After all others are flying the very same circuit today.
The young feller that had this experience was brave enough to bring it into the forum for discussion.....why not thank him for doing so and get some valuable use out of his experience.
Learning from someone else's experience is the better method than doing it all on your own....as you do not have enough time or money to learn all the lessons there are to be learned.
I suggest "Link 1" is the decision to fly from the airport in question. Anyone care to add "Link 2"?
Why don't we do something useful and do an accident chain analysis of this flight. After all others are flying the very same circuit today.
The young feller that had this experience was brave enough to bring it into the forum for discussion.....why not thank him for doing so and get some valuable use out of his experience.
Learning from someone else's experience is the better method than doing it all on your own....as you do not have enough time or money to learn all the lessons there are to be learned.
I suggest "Link 1" is the decision to fly from the airport in question. Anyone care to add "Link 2"?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: By the A&P
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good job getting all home safe and sound, although a bit wet.
Now I'm not trying to second guess you, but do you ask all of your students if they can swim? I only ask because the first time I flew in a Robbie was with a CFI in Hawaii and before we got near the beach (we were going to be flying over the edge of the island) he asked, in all seriousness, if I could swim.
Now I'm not trying to second guess you, but do you ask all of your students if they can swim? I only ask because the first time I flew in a Robbie was with a CFI in Hawaii and before we got near the beach (we were going to be flying over the edge of the island) he asked, in all seriousness, if I could swim.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland and Various
Age: 47
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would think link two would be going past the point of being able to return to land, in the event of an autorotation.
As someone who flies from an Island (albiet a Long Island), overwater and shorline flying is a topic of interest to me.
As someone who flies from an Island (albiet a Long Island), overwater and shorline flying is a topic of interest to me.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 426 Likes
on
225 Posts
I personally wouldn't do a downwind engine-off if there was an alternative, such as a crosswind one. However, I think you are the best person to judge what you could have done better (if anything) as you were the man in the hot seat and are now the expert witness. Thing is, you survived and so did your student. Well done!
One thing you might like to consider. During my brief time as a single engined jet pilot, and later a University Air Squadron QFI flying single engine piston aeroplanes, it was the norm to brief precise EFATO scenario procedures at the holding point.
You might like to think about doing this, even if at the beginning of a circuits detail, rebriefing if things, such as wind velocity, change.
One thing you might like to consider. During my brief time as a single engined jet pilot, and later a University Air Squadron QFI flying single engine piston aeroplanes, it was the norm to brief precise EFATO scenario procedures at the holding point.
You might like to think about doing this, even if at the beginning of a circuits detail, rebriefing if things, such as wind velocity, change.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My two cents
I know the airfeild you are talking about and I have always had an uneasy feeling doing a cicuit with student there for that reason. Unfortunatly there is not alot you can do to avoid that situation.
I can see why you didnt head for deep water as the shorter the swim the better. At the end of the day both you and the student were fine the machine was going to get wet either way so you must have made the right call
I know the airfeild you are talking about and I have always had an uneasy feeling doing a cicuit with student there for that reason. Unfortunatly there is not alot you can do to avoid that situation.
I can see why you didnt head for deep water as the shorter the swim the better. At the end of the day both you and the student were fine the machine was going to get wet either way so you must have made the right call
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wildwilly
Commendable actions. I’m surprised it took several posts after your description to ask the obvious and still unanswered Q. Flying from the ‘normal instructor possie’ left hand seat and having to climb out over the collective???? I can only assume that the ‘grass is green’ refers to Ireland. (joke
) Or, did you pirouette after blade contact to land on your port side?
I wonder why, if you were not wearing life vests??? you were in the position, of being out of auto range of land, against regulations? Our CAR 258 refers. It does not say much for your CFI quals, AOC ops manual or your friendly CAA for allowing it.
I guess you yourself took the job on as most do when desperate for a job and decided to suck and see. Too bad the seeing bit turned bad. Hopefully for the future your AOC holder will review this scenario.
I was always taught and teach, when in R/C with blades rotating counter-clockwise when viewed from above, to roll right before ditching. I was taught that the main reason was to use the water to tear the xmon out backwards away from the frail human occupants up front. I have twice seen xmon’s dragged forward when the blades were dug into soft sand on the port side. Each with bad consequences for the driver.
Apart from that I would prefer to have the blades beating down and pushing me up, not digging in and sucking me down.
I have always wondered why the R22 POH refers to applying LEFT lateral cyclic with power ON but there is no direction indicated in the power OFF ditching instruction, it’s just as quoted here.
(Para 2 Section 3-4) “Apply lateral cyclic when aircraft contacts water to stop blades from rotating.”
Commendable actions. I’m surprised it took several posts after your description to ask the obvious and still unanswered Q. Flying from the ‘normal instructor possie’ left hand seat and having to climb out over the collective???? I can only assume that the ‘grass is green’ refers to Ireland. (joke
) Or, did you pirouette after blade contact to land on your port side?I wonder why, if you were not wearing life vests??? you were in the position, of being out of auto range of land, against regulations? Our CAR 258 refers. It does not say much for your CFI quals, AOC ops manual or your friendly CAA for allowing it.
I guess you yourself took the job on as most do when desperate for a job and decided to suck and see. Too bad the seeing bit turned bad. Hopefully for the future your AOC holder will review this scenario.
I was always taught and teach, when in R/C with blades rotating counter-clockwise when viewed from above, to roll right before ditching. I was taught that the main reason was to use the water to tear the xmon out backwards away from the frail human occupants up front. I have twice seen xmon’s dragged forward when the blades were dug into soft sand on the port side. Each with bad consequences for the driver.
Apart from that I would prefer to have the blades beating down and pushing me up, not digging in and sucking me down.
I have always wondered why the R22 POH refers to applying LEFT lateral cyclic with power ON but there is no direction indicated in the power OFF ditching instruction, it’s just as quoted here.
(Para 2 Section 3-4) “Apply lateral cyclic when aircraft contacts water to stop blades from rotating.”
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Wildwilly,
I have only been in the aviation business for a little while, so forgive me if I sound incompetent.
Isn't the operator of the flying school suppose to supply the helicopter with some kind of flotation-device? I was just wondering because the circuit takes you over the water.
Just wondering.
I have only been in the aviation business for a little while, so forgive me if I sound incompetent.
Isn't the operator of the flying school suppose to supply the helicopter with some kind of flotation-device? I was just wondering because the circuit takes you over the water.
Just wondering.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kind of agree with most of what was said here. Most if not all should be thought about at all times. As for what I would do? When it actually happened? Well hopefully a job just as good as the pilot in said accident.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torquestripe
no i don't think you misunderstood at all, It's true I did jump three or four cogs forward and reckoned that he would have found it much harder to go out the stbd side, port side shouldn't rate a mention, collective jammed up or not.
One thing he didn't mention and for sure he must have encountered it as I have, is how f'n big them students eyes get when things go really pear shaped.
no i don't think you misunderstood at all, It's true I did jump three or four cogs forward and reckoned that he would have found it much harder to go out the stbd side, port side shouldn't rate a mention, collective jammed up or not.
One thing he didn't mention and for sure he must have encountered it as I have, is how f'n big them students eyes get when things go really pear shaped.
