On pilot shortages and stuff
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
On pilot shortages and stuff
Am I right in thinking that the current "pilot shortage" is still a shortage of experienced pilots who will work for the money offered, or has that now changed to a genuine shortage?
I only ask because I know of a couple of jobs (in Europe) for which there really hasn't been the material available - it's not just the heavy training costs to take the people on, but their sheer lack of experience in the first place. I mean, surely the N Sea companies wouldn't be forking out for so much IR training if it were otherwise?
I recognise the signs from a period just before Air Europe folded (many moons and many buffalo ago) when you couldn't get on a (fixed wing) pilot course for four years, and many companies went bust because they couldn't get pilots. Instrument rated pilots were being hauled off the N Sea and Madrid Centre was severely understaffed because the Air Trifficers had all gone flying, if memory serves. If that is what's coming for the helicopter industry, then it's time we did something about it.
Phil
I only ask because I know of a couple of jobs (in Europe) for which there really hasn't been the material available - it's not just the heavy training costs to take the people on, but their sheer lack of experience in the first place. I mean, surely the N Sea companies wouldn't be forking out for so much IR training if it were otherwise?
I recognise the signs from a period just before Air Europe folded (many moons and many buffalo ago) when you couldn't get on a (fixed wing) pilot course for four years, and many companies went bust because they couldn't get pilots. Instrument rated pilots were being hauled off the N Sea and Madrid Centre was severely understaffed because the Air Trifficers had all gone flying, if memory serves. If that is what's coming for the helicopter industry, then it's time we did something about it.
Phil
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From here the view is lovely
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phil;
Sadly I think it is now a proper shortage of experienced pilots. Salaries for onshore have now reached a level where they are starting to affect pricing(with small margins salaries are a major chunk of the cash) A pilot recently negotiated a salary of £80 000 on-shore.
We are losing experience at a frightening rate of knots and the younger guys are fighting to gain experience in a very restrictive market. The operators don't have the budget to train new pilots and certainly aren't going to put new pilots through the IR when there is no guarantee that the trainee will stay with them long enough for the ink to dry on the rating.
For the first time I recently binned a CV when the sender phoned me up in response to my acknowledgement letter. He was to say the least of it bloody agressive about why an operator should pay for him to do an IR. He certainly wouldn't listen to my arguments that training costs have to come out of whatever limited profits there are. Our owners pay management fees and the rest is public transport, where we are competing against everyone else at pretty much the same prices. When I asked if he would be prepared to do a partial pay back from salary or a two year bond for an operator his attitude was "why should I?"
He had 650 hours, 640 R22 and 10 B206, and an ego which made me doubt his suitability for aircrew, let alone dealing with VIP passengers. The few guys leaving the military seem to be heading straight for the airlines and for the self sponsored the costs are becoming prohibitive. Also the customers are becoming more aware. They talk to each other and hear of Mick Goss and Max Radford and others. They are unaware of the circumstances of the accidents but don't realise it. Rich people died and they are rich people so they try to improve their own safety. 40% of our public transport flights are 2 crew on single crew aircraft! OK its easy money but it b
s up the duty hours and can leave us short.
The two crew jobs would ideal to put inexperienced guys on. Sadly they are often last minute and then we have to go with whoever is available.
The situaton is going to get worse before it gets better. Will the last one to leave please switch out the lights.
Sadly I think it is now a proper shortage of experienced pilots. Salaries for onshore have now reached a level where they are starting to affect pricing(with small margins salaries are a major chunk of the cash) A pilot recently negotiated a salary of £80 000 on-shore.
We are losing experience at a frightening rate of knots and the younger guys are fighting to gain experience in a very restrictive market. The operators don't have the budget to train new pilots and certainly aren't going to put new pilots through the IR when there is no guarantee that the trainee will stay with them long enough for the ink to dry on the rating.
For the first time I recently binned a CV when the sender phoned me up in response to my acknowledgement letter. He was to say the least of it bloody agressive about why an operator should pay for him to do an IR. He certainly wouldn't listen to my arguments that training costs have to come out of whatever limited profits there are. Our owners pay management fees and the rest is public transport, where we are competing against everyone else at pretty much the same prices. When I asked if he would be prepared to do a partial pay back from salary or a two year bond for an operator his attitude was "why should I?"
He had 650 hours, 640 R22 and 10 B206, and an ego which made me doubt his suitability for aircrew, let alone dealing with VIP passengers. The few guys leaving the military seem to be heading straight for the airlines and for the self sponsored the costs are becoming prohibitive. Also the customers are becoming more aware. They talk to each other and hear of Mick Goss and Max Radford and others. They are unaware of the circumstances of the accidents but don't realise it. Rich people died and they are rich people so they try to improve their own safety. 40% of our public transport flights are 2 crew on single crew aircraft! OK its easy money but it b
s up the duty hours and can leave us short. The two crew jobs would ideal to put inexperienced guys on. Sadly they are often last minute and then we have to go with whoever is available.
The situaton is going to get worse before it gets better. Will the last one to leave please switch out the lights.
There are two sides to the bonding story:
You pay for type rating, IR and MCC, bond me for 3 to 5 years.
That means you have a trained pilot and I have a save and well paid job for that time with the strong option of extension.
Where is the problem ?
He who runs away after being trained will be blacklisted anyway.
Fairness should go both ways...
You pay for type rating, IR and MCC, bond me for 3 to 5 years.
That means you have a trained pilot and I have a save and well paid job for that time with the strong option of extension.
Where is the problem ?
He who runs away after being trained will be blacklisted anyway.
Fairness should go both ways...
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think verticalhold was pointing out the problem in attitude. Hours and ratings do not necessarily make a team player!!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
You can't survive in this industry if you're not a team player.
640 hours R22 means you might have experience as instructor, but none in VIP, they don't fly in R22s, no filming, photo,no two pilot crew...and so on.
So basically a complete virgin.
640 hours R22 means you might have experience as instructor, but none in VIP, they don't fly in R22s, no filming, photo,no two pilot crew...and so on.
So basically a complete virgin.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From here the view is lovely
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GoodGrief;
Absolutely. Would have been prepared to help him pop his cherry had he been prepared to to a deal on a twin rating. Five minutes into the conversation I decided he could take the nuns approach to life.
To get into VIP you need to start somewhere. For the right person we are prepared to bend our rules, persuade our owners or pretty much anything except compromise our standards. Sadly the money for investment in others is limited, however we do give our time and some cash where it is worth it.
And some operators will look the other way if a trained pilot makes himself available. The black list is more myth than reallity.
Be interested to know your experience. PM me if you like. I may not be able to help, but you form a major part of the future of this industry.
VH
Absolutely. Would have been prepared to help him pop his cherry had he been prepared to to a deal on a twin rating. Five minutes into the conversation I decided he could take the nuns approach to life.
To get into VIP you need to start somewhere. For the right person we are prepared to bend our rules, persuade our owners or pretty much anything except compromise our standards. Sadly the money for investment in others is limited, however we do give our time and some cash where it is worth it.
And some operators will look the other way if a trained pilot makes himself available. The black list is more myth than reallity.
Be interested to know your experience. PM me if you like. I may not be able to help, but you form a major part of the future of this industry.
VH
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot shortages...where ?
32 yrs old, ex QSP, nearly 1400 hrs, 1200 TT, flown all over the world, ATPL (A) and (H) though no IR, and I cant get a whisper of a job (and I've phoned up a multitude of people).
Its a myth........
And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).
Waiting for abuse........
Its a myth........
And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).
Waiting for abuse........
I couldn't see a "pilot shortage" in Europe. May be a shortage of pilots willing to do a job for peanuts. After long years in this business i think i have never seen so much pressure to the pilots to work more, to earn less and to take more risks in flying. I know a lot of pilots having more than 5000 hours, several ratings in her mid forties and burned out by the daily job searching hard to find a better engagement. Longlining, ag/forestry work, fire, short the aerial work is under big pressure. Also the EMS sectors have lowered entry earns and social benefits compared to the increasing life costs. A lot of operators have closed and the new operators and the older chiefs still in the business handle the usual pilot just as a short term "cost factor" and never looking into the future.
The flight schools telling myths about a bright future to the new guys, we have a lot of frustrated military pilots ready to cancel the mil job immediately and all are ready to work for allways lower incomes.
May be the offshore business is better but onshore the situation isn't good.
The flight schools telling myths about a bright future to the new guys, we have a lot of frustrated military pilots ready to cancel the mil job immediately and all are ready to work for allways lower incomes.
May be the offshore business is better but onshore the situation isn't good.
Last edited by tecpilot; 23rd Jan 2007 at 15:22.
32 yrs old, ex QSP, nearly 1400 hrs, 1200 TT, flown all over the world, ATPL (A) and (H) though no IR, and I cant get a whisper of a job (and I've phoned up a multitude of people).
Its a myth........
And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).
Waiting for abuse........
Its a myth........
And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).
Waiting for abuse........
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
How about 14+ sectors a day, IFR and fully IMC between non-airfield locations, some of them as demanding as oil rigs but without the benefit of a local navaid? Onshore corporate work isn't all as easy as some might think, either. 
To have a decent look-in at an onshore job in the UK, you'll need either an IR or FI to go with your CPL. If you've got either (and are willing to move), there are jobs available.
Actually, have you considered moving to Scotland? (If you aren't there already!) PDG were advertising for VFR drivers recently. Although I think that they were looking for 2000hrs TT min...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot on Bravo73, IMO this is one of the key elements, its the willingness to go where ever the work is (certainly with your hours and when trying to get a first "civvy" job) and being flexible with hours, holiday, salary ... etc etc will undoubtebly help.
As someone once said "get on your bike" and get out to see the folk that can help you get started in this industry, solely sending out CVs is only adding to the tens of similar CVs these helicopter operators see each week, it'll be what makes you stand out that gets you a job.
Good luck
MS
As someone once said "get on your bike" and get out to see the folk that can help you get started in this industry, solely sending out CVs is only adding to the tens of similar CVs these helicopter operators see each week, it'll be what makes you stand out that gets you a job.
Good luck
MS
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oop North
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is certainly a shortage of experienced pilots for the offshore companies due to several factors; the main one being a whole generation of experienced co-pilots left the industry in the late 1990s for fixed wing. This left a big hole that has been impossible to fill with suitably qualified ex-mil or civilian pilots.
There are plenty of applicants for any vacant co-pilot positions but the quality of applicants seems to be poor. They are failing interviews, psychometric testing, sim checks, and should they pass all those hurdles they are even failing company sponsored IRs and line checks, which is very disturbing. This has led the companies to be very wary of candidates who are not in possession of an IR.
What is the solution? To be honest I don't have an easy answer for the experience problem but I think that the companies may be forced/convinced that a sponsorship program for selected pilots may be the way forward as at the moment the only selection being done is by money - can the applicant afford to finance their own training.
This is not working as can be seen by the present failure rate. Somebody may be able to safely fly a R22 in day VFR but doesn't have the spare capacity to fly a complex twin down to offshore minimums, at night, to moving deck so some form of selection is needed right at the start of the training process to minimise the failure rate. Bond had a sponsored pilot intake in the late 1980s that all made the grade so a precedent has been set.
332M
There are plenty of applicants for any vacant co-pilot positions but the quality of applicants seems to be poor. They are failing interviews, psychometric testing, sim checks, and should they pass all those hurdles they are even failing company sponsored IRs and line checks, which is very disturbing. This has led the companies to be very wary of candidates who are not in possession of an IR.
What is the solution? To be honest I don't have an easy answer for the experience problem but I think that the companies may be forced/convinced that a sponsorship program for selected pilots may be the way forward as at the moment the only selection being done is by money - can the applicant afford to finance their own training.
This is not working as can be seen by the present failure rate. Somebody may be able to safely fly a R22 in day VFR but doesn't have the spare capacity to fly a complex twin down to offshore minimums, at night, to moving deck so some form of selection is needed right at the start of the training process to minimise the failure rate. Bond had a sponsored pilot intake in the late 1980s that all made the grade so a precedent has been set.
332M
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Afternoon all!
An interesting post which has generated some mixed responses..
I think that there maybe different job prospects in different parts of Europe. Although, I would say confidently that 2006 was a buoyant year for helicopter charter in the U.K and it would appear that 2007 is going to be the same. (Touch wood) However, there are a number of experienced pilots with and without IRs that have retired or are about to retire. It is very difficult to find well presented, capable and confident pilots that will be able to launch off on a charter and operate to the standard that is now required / expected. 2006 has proven that and there really was a shortage of pilots throughout the year.
The helicopter charter market has / is becoming more sophisticated and aircraft are more reliable now. The stigma that has been attached to helicopter charter historically was that if the weather is bad the passengers will assume that they may not get there. That is not so true anymore. Whilst it is not essential that a pilot should havean IR – I would suggest that most, if not all, IFR Operators in the U.K would have to ponder over offering a non IR pilot a salaried position within the company. There is no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft…
I’m not suggesting that we all have a ‘like it or lump it’ attitude, far from it! However, there are huge costs related to running an AOC and it maybe that we would require some financial input from a future IR Pilot to get the wheels in motion. As vertical hold says, if we can ‘do a deal’, it makes the future a little more promising.
I agree with Verticleholds sentiments entirely – it really is a question of attitude and ability, not one or the other.
I hope that sounds like a reasonably balanced point of view?
XD
An interesting post which has generated some mixed responses..
I think that there maybe different job prospects in different parts of Europe. Although, I would say confidently that 2006 was a buoyant year for helicopter charter in the U.K and it would appear that 2007 is going to be the same. (Touch wood) However, there are a number of experienced pilots with and without IRs that have retired or are about to retire. It is very difficult to find well presented, capable and confident pilots that will be able to launch off on a charter and operate to the standard that is now required / expected. 2006 has proven that and there really was a shortage of pilots throughout the year.
The helicopter charter market has / is becoming more sophisticated and aircraft are more reliable now. The stigma that has been attached to helicopter charter historically was that if the weather is bad the passengers will assume that they may not get there. That is not so true anymore. Whilst it is not essential that a pilot should havean IR – I would suggest that most, if not all, IFR Operators in the U.K would have to ponder over offering a non IR pilot a salaried position within the company. There is no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft…
I’m not suggesting that we all have a ‘like it or lump it’ attitude, far from it! However, there are huge costs related to running an AOC and it maybe that we would require some financial input from a future IR Pilot to get the wheels in motion. As vertical hold says, if we can ‘do a deal’, it makes the future a little more promising.
I agree with Verticleholds sentiments entirely – it really is a question of attitude and ability, not one or the other.
I hope that sounds like a reasonably balanced point of view?
XD
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: JAA land
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the last years there was only a limited interest in IR pilots. Just some offshore guys and very few exec pilots. An other operator wasn't interested. Doesn't assist his pilots to hold IR and tried only to limit his costs. You couldn't get a bonus if you are a IR pilot. Knowing big onshore operators with twins which told their pilots "we are operating this SA330 or BK117 only VFR day and night, your IR isn't our thing. You have to pay if you want our helicopters to stay current". I know some pilots today without IR because they couldn't hold their IR current on own pay. Also up to today the most VFR operators doesn't give pilots at least a small bonus for lot's of hours, FI/TRI ratings or other experiences. "Our entry offer is this, take it or leave! There are so many hungry pilots out there!" 
It's the same with the FI ratings, if your company don't need at the moment a FI nobody will assist you. May be next year they need someone and crying "There are no experienced pilots!".
Ratings are expensive. It's no fun to get an IR or FI rating! How many years you have to work for it? And what's the average pay outside this offshore guys?
Working in an expensive country in Europe and i have never, never heard about a normal onshore pilot earning so much money 
Understand it as 120.000€ a year?
It's the same with the FI ratings, if your company don't need at the moment a FI nobody will assist you. May be next year they need someone and crying "There are no experienced pilots!".
Ratings are expensive. It's no fun to get an IR or FI rating! How many years you have to work for it? And what's the average pay outside this offshore guys?
A pilot recently negotiated a salary of £80 000 on-shore.
Understand it as 120.000€ a year?
Last edited by greenthumb; 23rd Jan 2007 at 18:54.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In my box!
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well i sadly only have a CPL(H), the IR route is a bit expensive but hopefully with my 2200 hrs turbine somebody might want me. But i intend to get on my bike and go visit the companies. As a Mil pilot you realise it doesn't come to he who waits! Watch this space!!!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ab139 Engineer
In Reguard To Pilots Not Being Able To Find Work I Am Surprised That No One Has Mentioned The High Cost Of Insuring Low Time Pilots. If A Company Has A Few Incidents In Its Past There Rates Will Be Very High, And Less Likely To Hire A Low Time Pilot That Statistically Is More Risk Than A Seasoned Accident Free High Timer.
Another Issue I See All The Time Is A Company Invests Time , Money And Aircraft Use For Upgrading Pilots And Then The Pilot Quits And Goes To Work For Another Company. No Wonder Companies Are So Selective About Hiring !
Another Issue I See All The Time Is A Company Invests Time , Money And Aircraft Use For Upgrading Pilots And Then The Pilot Quits And Goes To Work For Another Company. No Wonder Companies Are So Selective About Hiring !
From 1000h upward there should be no difference in insuring. And most companies have a company insurance contract (fleet contract) and it makes no difference if they hire a 1000h pilot to the other pilots. This insurance problem exist only for small companies and very low time pilots.
The operator talk allways to his pilots they have to be "flexible with working hours, holiday, salary, home ..." why he is surprised if a pilot leave in case of a better offer? He could take also the most "flexible" company. If the working and salary conditions are good no pilot will leave suddenly a good environment!
...And Goes To Work For Another Company
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: offshore
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think 1000 hrs is very low time. Of course with backround experience, you will find pilots with higher levels of skill for the amount of hours logged. I have seen also 10,000 hour pilots who werent much chop either. Attitude does have a lot to do with it, and a lot of pilots fall on their feet thru luck as well. Psychometric testing and the like is a load of crap in selection processes. If you are lucky enough to strike an interview with a manager who is willing to actually listen to you intead of himself would be a dream as well. Good luck to all who are out there actively persuing this thankless career. ( once you get over the biggles thing, that is)