review of commercial medicals
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"Aerial work pilots (e.g. instructors) can fly after 60 so flying after 60 with no "passengers" (i.e. operations staff, students) is OK."
Repositioning flight for the purpose of picking up passengers? Is that commercial ops? Debatable. Anyhow, just do the startup with a passenger and never lift off.
"I doubt there's many out there who would be prepared to be the guinea pig"
I am! At least in Sweden, where worst case scenario is probably that you need to pay the fines, which shouldn't be much. If the Swedish court is forwarding the matter to the EC court in Luxembourg, the outcome will gain effect in the UK as well. Problem is that firstly I would need a commercial flying job, secondly I would have to hover for 35 years before I might be in breach of the "age 60 rule".
However, changing the ops manual and appeal if it isn't approved should be an easier way to go I suppose. In the UK, do you need to pay anything if you don't gain any success in an administrative court in a case against an authority such as the CAA?
Repositioning flight for the purpose of picking up passengers? Is that commercial ops? Debatable. Anyhow, just do the startup with a passenger and never lift off.
"I doubt there's many out there who would be prepared to be the guinea pig"
I am! At least in Sweden, where worst case scenario is probably that you need to pay the fines, which shouldn't be much. If the Swedish court is forwarding the matter to the EC court in Luxembourg, the outcome will gain effect in the UK as well. Problem is that firstly I would need a commercial flying job, secondly I would have to hover for 35 years before I might be in breach of the "age 60 rule".
However, changing the ops manual and appeal if it isn't approved should be an easier way to go I suppose. In the UK, do you need to pay anything if you don't gain any success in an administrative court in a case against an authority such as the CAA?
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Well, here we don't but on the other hand the tax burdan is outrageous.
When I come to think about it, here you should be able to ask a question to the CAA how the age 60 rule is applied in the light of the age discrimination laws. If you appeal and lose, you don't need not to pay anything apart from your own costs, if any.
The only problem is that Sweden hasn't implemented the directive regarding discrimination on the grounds of age yet, and will probably not do so until 2008. You might be able to take advantage of the directive even before that date, but personally I have not much to gain even though it would be fun to try the case.
If I got too much time on my hands, would anyone care to provide me details giving reasons that there is no (medical) reason to prohibit 60-65 year olds, that do possess a JAR class 1 medical, from flying commercial single pilot ops?
When I come to think about it, here you should be able to ask a question to the CAA how the age 60 rule is applied in the light of the age discrimination laws. If you appeal and lose, you don't need not to pay anything apart from your own costs, if any.
The only problem is that Sweden hasn't implemented the directive regarding discrimination on the grounds of age yet, and will probably not do so until 2008. You might be able to take advantage of the directive even before that date, but personally I have not much to gain even though it would be fun to try the case.
If I got too much time on my hands, would anyone care to provide me details giving reasons that there is no (medical) reason to prohibit 60-65 year olds, that do possess a JAR class 1 medical, from flying commercial single pilot ops?
Thread Starter
Martin: I'll dig it out when I get back to work.
I have approached the CAA and they are saying - no-one has challenged us yet and until they do, they don't know what will happen
Basically - don't unscrew the lid off that can of worms
Handysnaks - care to extrapolate on this Tax hand out you got for police flying, could we all benefit from this? PM me if necessary.
regards,
I have approached the CAA and they are saying - no-one has challenged us yet and until they do, they don't know what will happen
Basically - don't unscrew the lid off that can of worms
Handysnaks - care to extrapolate on this Tax hand out you got for police flying, could we all benefit from this? PM me if necessary.
regards,
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The dreaded day is only 3 months away for me. I work free-lance only these days and I am advised by my lawyers to wait until I have "suffered a detriment" (i.e. loss of income when my license privileges are withdrawn) then sue the CAA for that loss.
We have looked at a "class action" and agree there is no easy way to fund it and none of my contemporaries is prepared to contribute to a fighting fund. However on a matter of such significance there may well be access to legal aid, for an individual, particularly if any appeal ends up up in the High Court and/or Eurpean Courts (which, of course, it must)
I am determined to fight this issue for as long as I am able. If there is anyone out there who wants and has the means to help or advise me in any way I would be very grateful.
We have looked at a "class action" and agree there is no easy way to fund it and none of my contemporaries is prepared to contribute to a fighting fund. However on a matter of such significance there may well be access to legal aid, for an individual, particularly if any appeal ends up up in the High Court and/or Eurpean Courts (which, of course, it must)
I am determined to fight this issue for as long as I am able. If there is anyone out there who wants and has the means to help or advise me in any way I would be very grateful.
Thread Starter
Uncle Ian: you bet
Here is my main reference (more for martin 1234):
www.icao.int
Use the search option and type in 'amendment 167'.
the important bit being: personnel licensing, amendment 167 to annex 1.
If you PM me, I will ship you hard copies of what I have sent our lawyers to date.
Good luck and keep us all informed eh?
Here is my main reference (more for martin 1234):
www.icao.int
Use the search option and type in 'amendment 167'.
the important bit being: personnel licensing, amendment 167 to annex 1.
If you PM me, I will ship you hard copies of what I have sent our lawyers to date.
Good luck and keep us all informed eh?
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Maybe its just me but I do not understand the need for people to try and fly as comercial pilots beyond 60/65. Think of the effect on the employment market for the youngsters coming into the industry if all you old f---s try to fly on until altzheimers confuses the cyclic with the collective. If its a financial thing surely we should be ensuring that the industry provides sufficient protection for retirement at a suitible age.
Hovering AND talking
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Have you been watching Logan's Run!! 
The issue of employment for younger pilots is a different matter to whether someone automatically becomes unable to work purely because they have reached a certain age.
Some pilots retire voluntarily before they're 60; others would like to continue. Shouldn't they be allowed, as with other professions, to make that choice rather than have it made for them.
The Alzheimer's comment is irrelevent and crass.
Cheers
Whirls
The issue of employment for younger pilots is a different matter to whether someone automatically becomes unable to work purely because they have reached a certain age.
Some pilots retire voluntarily before they're 60; others would like to continue. Shouldn't they be allowed, as with other professions, to make that choice rather than have it made for them.
The Alzheimer's comment is irrelevent and crass.
Cheers
Whirls
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Not sure the alzheimers remark is any more crass than the Logans Run one. However I was under the impression this was a free forum and therefore I was intitled to my point of view.
Although not as relevant to the Rotary world, it really irritates me to hear the airline guys bemoaning there fate at having to retire at 65 after salary's in the 6 figures. Peronally I would not be to enthused to board any aircraft crewed by what I would consider to be geriatrics. I make this statement having been in the industry approaching 30 years and on the wrong side of 50. We all knew what the rules were pertaining to this vocation before entering it.
Although not as relevant to the Rotary world, it really irritates me to hear the airline guys bemoaning there fate at having to retire at 65 after salary's in the 6 figures. Peronally I would not be to enthused to board any aircraft crewed by what I would consider to be geriatrics. I make this statement having been in the industry approaching 30 years and on the wrong side of 50. We all knew what the rules were pertaining to this vocation before entering it.
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No I am not likely to chang my mind at 59, It has always been my intention to try and retire around 55 although my present company policy is 58 with the option to continue to 60 if its agreeable to both parties. After what will then have been 35 years in the seat I think that wil be more than enough.
Hovering AND talking
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Yeah and I said I'd never, ever listen to Radio 2 or wear sensible shoes!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
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Tranquil,
What gives you or anyone else the right to decide at what age someone else should want to stop flying? Your Altzeimers comment is stupid, childish, and irrelevant - if you'd actually been reading this thread you would see that no-one is suggesting that someone who can't pass a medical should fly. Frankly, I'd be very worried about YOU being employed as a pilot, considering you seem to be incapable of understanding a simple logical argument, remembering what you read, or putting yourself in someone else's position. I would very, very seriously question your knowledge of human factors and your decision making in the air! If you do fly, do me a favour, keep well away from me, OK!
What gives you or anyone else the right to decide at what age someone else should want to stop flying? Your Altzeimers comment is stupid, childish, and irrelevant - if you'd actually been reading this thread you would see that no-one is suggesting that someone who can't pass a medical should fly. Frankly, I'd be very worried about YOU being employed as a pilot, considering you seem to be incapable of understanding a simple logical argument, remembering what you read, or putting yourself in someone else's position. I would very, very seriously question your knowledge of human factors and your decision making in the air! If you do fly, do me a favour, keep well away from me, OK!
Thread Starter
Ouch whirlybird.....but well said
Tranquil...oh for a tranquil well laid out plan.
Apart from the fact that some people are actually still raring to go at 60 and actually may feel very alive and keen to work a decent days labour..
there's the principle of the matter. What gave ICAO the right to decide that 60 year old's are any less safe than 65 year old's???
Go whilry go whirly go go go
Tranquil...oh for a tranquil well laid out plan.
Apart from the fact that some people are actually still raring to go at 60 and actually may feel very alive and keen to work a decent days labour..
there's the principle of the matter. What gave ICAO the right to decide that 60 year old's are any less safe than 65 year old's???
Go whilry go whirly go go go
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Wow,
Whirlybird,
I don't think I said I had the right to decide, I purely expressed an opinion. With regard to your comment "Frankly, I'd be very worried about YOU being employed as a pilot, considering you seem to be incapable of understanding a simple logical argument," I would suggest you look at your own comments with the same logic. Please do not worry I will do my best to avoid being anywhere in your vicinity because as such an obviously calm, collected and extremely profesional person I would not want to be responsible for upsetting you.
Whirlybird,
I don't think I said I had the right to decide, I purely expressed an opinion. With regard to your comment "Frankly, I'd be very worried about YOU being employed as a pilot, considering you seem to be incapable of understanding a simple logical argument," I would suggest you look at your own comments with the same logic. Please do not worry I will do my best to avoid being anywhere in your vicinity because as such an obviously calm, collected and extremely profesional person I would not want to be responsible for upsetting you.
The Original Whirly
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Tranquil,
Expressing an opinion is saying, "I don't think 60 year olds....etc etc etc, because...etc etc. But what you said was
That is equivalent to saying that anyone over 60 shouldn't be flying. It's also rude, inaccurate, and unproven...what effect on the employment market?
Now that I've explained, perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell me what you meant by
Or give me an example. If you can, which I very much doubt, because you wouldn't know a logical argument from a bacon buttie.
As for your final sentence...grow up! Bu I'm glad you're agreeing to keep away from me at least.
Expressing an opinion is saying, "I don't think 60 year olds....etc etc etc, because...etc etc. But what you said was
Think of the effect on the employment market for the youngsters coming into the industry if all you old f---s try to fly on until altzheimers confuses the cyclic with the collective.
Now that I've explained, perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell me what you meant by
I would suggest you look at your own comments with the same logic.
As for your final sentence...grow up! Bu I'm glad you're agreeing to keep away from me at least.