Helicopter down - North Sea Dutch sector
Forgive me if this is a dumb question - but what are the chances of her flying again ?.
I've always wondered about the risk of putting a machine back in the air that has been immersed (even partially) in sea water. Is it a 'no-no' or 'depends'.
I've always wondered about the risk of putting a machine back in the air that has been immersed (even partially) in sea water. Is it a 'no-no' or 'depends'.
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Will the AAIB not be involved if it is a G registered aircraft ? Posts seem to imply it is still registered as G-JSAR, good to see everyone got out and the aircraft looks reasonably intact.
I assume you are equally dissapointed with Helicomparitor for taking pot-shots at Nick's S92 in the other thread? Or was that OK because the crew & pax didn't get wet?
-- IFMU
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finalchecksplease,
You certainly have the right to think what you will.
I was actually simply pointing out that mr. helicomparitor was EXTREMELY quick to post about an S92 turnback due to warning lights, but quite absent from this thread.
There is some kind of goose-gander thing going on here, I think.
I also have the greatest respect for the crew who got their passengers to safety, and frankly derive no pleasure whatsoever at anyone's misfortune, regardless of which helicopter or operator is involved.
I
You certainly have the right to think what you will.
I was actually simply pointing out that mr. helicomparitor was EXTREMELY quick to post about an S92 turnback due to warning lights, but quite absent from this thread.
There is some kind of goose-gander thing going on here, I think.
I also have the greatest respect for the crew who got their passengers to safety, and frankly derive no pleasure whatsoever at anyone's misfortune, regardless of which helicopter or operator is involved.
I
NorthSeaTiger,
From memory, the State of Occurrence normally leads an investigation, with the State of Registration and the State of Manufacture able to help if requested. If the State of Occurrence does not have the ability to conduct the investigation, it may delegate (usually to the State of Registration) another party to conduct the investigation.
From memory, the State of Occurrence normally leads an investigation, with the State of Registration and the State of Manufacture able to help if requested. If the State of Occurrence does not have the ability to conduct the investigation, it may delegate (usually to the State of Registration) another party to conduct the investigation.
Lets try and avoid this becoming a slanging match please.
Most Puma drivers will be concerned at the loss of two L2s in such a short period of time and will be keen to discover exactly what happened rather than endless speculation.
Having said that, without actually knowing who helicomparator is, it would seem from his posts that he is in a senior position within Bristow and may therefore be involved in both the company as well as the Authority's investigations and it would therefore be wholly inappropriate either for him to speculate or divulge information which might prejudice the same. An accident is somewhat different to an incident in that it takes much longer for information to be released and an explanation forwarded. Let's not be too quick off the mark here.
Ditching an aircraft at night is a horrible decision to have to make, the crew deserve a lot credit for dealing with the situation to a successful outcome
Most Puma drivers will be concerned at the loss of two L2s in such a short period of time and will be keen to discover exactly what happened rather than endless speculation.
Having said that, without actually knowing who helicomparator is, it would seem from his posts that he is in a senior position within Bristow and may therefore be involved in both the company as well as the Authority's investigations and it would therefore be wholly inappropriate either for him to speculate or divulge information which might prejudice the same. An accident is somewhat different to an incident in that it takes much longer for information to be released and an explanation forwarded. Let's not be too quick off the mark here.
Ditching an aircraft at night is a horrible decision to have to make, the crew deserve a lot credit for dealing with the situation to a successful outcome
As Hippolite and Captain Catastrophe said, many will be very concerned about the loss of 2 x 332L2 in 3 weeks.
However, the latest updates from Exxon Mobil show that aircraft mechanical issues are no longer being examined as a likely cause in the MHS Accident. This would tend to sever any tenuous connections which may be mistakenly drawn between the two occurrences.
Below is an extract from a recent communication from the head of Exxon Mobil Aviation to other Oil and Gas companies.
"At this time, all indications are that there was nothing mechanically wrong with the helicopter. The investigation team will now focus on the analysis of the CVR/FDR and HUMS data and an initial review of this data is scheduled for the end of November 2006 in Paris.
The AS332L1 and AS332L2 fleet in Malaysia has been returned to service following the implementation of revised weather criteria for VFR operations and additional training for all AS332L2 pilots in instrument flying, unusual attitude recovery and coordination exercises. A number of other recommendations will be offered to EMEPMI management in the immediate future.Finally, the use of Airborne Radar Approaches (ARAs) has been suspended for all helicopter types in Malaysia until further notice."
However, the latest updates from Exxon Mobil show that aircraft mechanical issues are no longer being examined as a likely cause in the MHS Accident. This would tend to sever any tenuous connections which may be mistakenly drawn between the two occurrences.
Below is an extract from a recent communication from the head of Exxon Mobil Aviation to other Oil and Gas companies.
"At this time, all indications are that there was nothing mechanically wrong with the helicopter. The investigation team will now focus on the analysis of the CVR/FDR and HUMS data and an initial review of this data is scheduled for the end of November 2006 in Paris.
The AS332L1 and AS332L2 fleet in Malaysia has been returned to service following the implementation of revised weather criteria for VFR operations and additional training for all AS332L2 pilots in instrument flying, unusual attitude recovery and coordination exercises. A number of other recommendations will be offered to EMEPMI management in the immediate future.Finally, the use of Airborne Radar Approaches (ARAs) has been suspended for all helicopter types in Malaysia until further notice."
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The Grim Reaper ditched an RAF Puma a few years ago that went under and was recovered successfully. They left it in a hangar to fizz for a few months then overhauled it back to flying state I believe. It took a long time though!!
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If the aircraft has been treated with Corrosion-X, there is often no problem at all. It works very well at preventing corrosion from both the salt in the air and from salt water. It's good stuff.
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A dozen or so good close up photos of the beached G-JSAR at
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.htm...06/gjsar.htm&2
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.htm...06/gjsar.htm&2
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I would like to say one thing......which is "Very well done" to the crew who obviously made a textbook night ditching.
I hope the underwear washed OK.
I hope the underwear washed OK.
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A dozen or so good close up photos of the beached G-JSAR at
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.htm...06/gjsar.htm&2
http://www.texelairport.nl/index.htm...06/gjsar.htm&2
Obviously in this case all floats worked, and there was a choice of exits - it's just something I was wondering about . .
On the Super Puma there is an emergency release or ejection handle to jettison the door so the float jamming the door should not be an issue.
Obviously in this case the crew elected not to jettison the door.
Obviously in this case the crew elected not to jettison the door.
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I realise that there are ways to jettison doors, but remember that under very stressful conditions people often revert to an action that they have performed hundreds or thousands of times before - i.e. opening a door by the handle.
There are several cases where this has led to fatalities in incidents as the crew have reverted to a method they have used before. Some of the incidents have had a massive loss of life.
Coming to this with fresh eyes, it just seems to me that there may be a small area of potential improvement in design.
There are several cases where this has led to fatalities in incidents as the crew have reverted to a method they have used before. Some of the incidents have had a massive loss of life.
Coming to this with fresh eyes, it just seems to me that there may be a small area of potential improvement in design.
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On the 6th picture down, it appears that the door is being obstructed by the front left float. I admit this is pure speculation, but if there was a partial failure to inflate with only the port floats triggered, wouldn't the craft roll onto it's right side, leaving this door as the exit for both crew? If the float gets in the way of it opening, that could lead to delays in exiting.
Obviously in this case all floats worked, and there was a choice of exits - it's just something I was wondering about . .
Obviously in this case all floats worked, and there was a choice of exits - it's just something I was wondering about . .
Also consider a ditch into shallow water (say a couple meters deep) with a roll. The side toward which the aircraft rolls, no way you'll get out there (this very thing happened to a friend of mine some dozen years ago, thankfully all survived with no major injuries).
As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch. I'm not second-guessing here because there are so many things none of us know. Most definitely any one you can get that number of people out more or less unscathed is just this side of miraculous and a credit to the crew.
And finally, it struck me as odd that the machine managed to self-navigate all the way to the beach some 25km and remained upright the entire way. Until this event, I'd NEVER seen a photo of a ditched helicopter that had remained upright.
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Um... lifting...
There are good examples of helicopters that remained afloat for some time:
S61 G-BEID of BA Helicopters was towed into Aberdeen in the 1970s
214ST G-BKFN of BCal in the 1980s (mentioned above) was aslo recovered and put back into service
214ST VH-HOQ of Lloyd ditched after a mishandled engine problem on TO and floated until the liferaft painter was cut by open blade and the bags punctured
332 G-TIBK of Bristow that was struck by ligthning in 1995 and stayed afloat for 5-6 hours in heavy seas before rolling over during salvage
332 LN-OBP of Helikopter Service ditched in 1996 after un-noticed corrosion on the rotor blades edges and stayed afloat for about 15 hours before turning over in a 7-8m swell
In fact I can't remember another controlled North Sea ditching in the last 10 years.
The British CAA were trying to fund test on a float system that makes the helicopter float on its side. looking at the above and the Den Helder accident that plan seems stupid as that would make recovery very unlikley.
There are good examples of helicopters that remained afloat for some time:
S61 G-BEID of BA Helicopters was towed into Aberdeen in the 1970s
214ST G-BKFN of BCal in the 1980s (mentioned above) was aslo recovered and put back into service
214ST VH-HOQ of Lloyd ditched after a mishandled engine problem on TO and floated until the liferaft painter was cut by open blade and the bags punctured
332 G-TIBK of Bristow that was struck by ligthning in 1995 and stayed afloat for 5-6 hours in heavy seas before rolling over during salvage
332 LN-OBP of Helikopter Service ditched in 1996 after un-noticed corrosion on the rotor blades edges and stayed afloat for about 15 hours before turning over in a 7-8m swell
In fact I can't remember another controlled North Sea ditching in the last 10 years.
The British CAA were trying to fund test on a float system that makes the helicopter float on its side. looking at the above and the Den Helder accident that plan seems stupid as that would make recovery very unlikley.
umm lifting...
You said, "As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch."
I don't like the idea of jettisoning the doors anytime before I have no need for the main or tail rotors.
There was a Bell 212 in the maldives years ago that was ditching and one of the pilots jettisoned his door and it went into the main rotor and then into the tail rotor thus turning a bad situation into a catastrophic accident.
You can read the report here. http://www.aviainfo.gov.mv/REPORTS/bell2123.htm
I would suggest unlocking the doors prior to ditching would be a great idea to reduce the chance of the locking pins binding the doors from being ditched once in or on the water.
my $0.02
bb
You said, "As I was trained, if one knows one is going to ditch, jettison the doors, THEN bang the floats, THEN ditch."
I don't like the idea of jettisoning the doors anytime before I have no need for the main or tail rotors.
There was a Bell 212 in the maldives years ago that was ditching and one of the pilots jettisoned his door and it went into the main rotor and then into the tail rotor thus turning a bad situation into a catastrophic accident.
You can read the report here. http://www.aviainfo.gov.mv/REPORTS/bell2123.htm
I would suggest unlocking the doors prior to ditching would be a great idea to reduce the chance of the locking pins binding the doors from being ditched once in or on the water.
my $0.02
bb
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That's what's taught in the U.S. military... stubborn bunch, not likely to change. That said, page one, paragraph one of all our flight manuals said: "Nothing in this manual is to be construed as a substitute for sound judgment." (or words to that effect).
There are so many factors in a ditching that I won't be so cavalier as to say that one solution fits all. Some ditchings are semi-controlled (or even uncontrolled) crashes. Some are into ridiculous sea states where blade impact, sudden stoppage and rollover are pretty much inevitable. Some are with completely untrained passengers (despite our best efforts otherwise) perhaps with a language barrier. Offloading them at night in a seaway from a pitching, rolling, and heaving helicopter is guaranteed pandemonium with a high likelihood of several dead. Any of those situations is a strong argument for getting rid of the doors early (the first due to possible frame bending and jamming the doors, the second due to passenger panic and mayhem and maybe not getting the door open at all in the melee).
While I don't know this, I surmise that our friends in the Puma opened the sliding doors prior to going in the water (I could be wrong, so those of you who partially read posts and then leap please refrain from telling me I'm wrong should it turn out that indeed I am). I can't quite work out when the pilot doors came open based upon the photos. Depending upon your machine, you might not HAVE a sliding door and a hinged cabin door might be more of a liability to keep aboard (it might puncture a float for one). Also I try to run the scenario through in my mind for the machine and profile I'm flying. So far I haven't had to test my scenarios, touch wood. Perhaps all I know is wrong. But it's possible that jettisoning some doors post ditch might not be possible depending upon your float configuration. If you have a sliding door that when slid open blocks an escape window and there are passengers in that seat, consider jettisoning the sliding door (I can speak to a couple helicopters that are configured this way).
If I really had things under control but it was clear I'd have to put it in the water and I'd have a few minutes to sort things out in the hover, I'd have the raft tossed out, have everybody plop out the door from the hover, taxi downwind and downsea a bit and put it in with just myself aboard (I KNOW I can probably get myself out). But when are you going to get that kind of luck?
From where I stand, first priority is as many people alive and bobbing in the raft as possible, second priority is minimizing injury, third or fourth is if the airframe is reusable (but it will need a lot of work regardless)... doors, so long as you keep them under control... I don't care if they rot away on the bottom of the ocean and I don't care if I have to keep the airframers in beer for a month as a consequence.
In other words... it depends, so I don't disagree with you... but in certain situations... I just might.
Last edited by Um... lifting...; 24th Nov 2006 at 23:03.
Um... Lifting..
I'll take what you wrote as excellent advice for any future ditchings.
You certainly have a much greater understanding of the subject then I do. I'm just a bush pilot turned IFR guy trying to find my way.
cheers,
bb
I'll take what you wrote as excellent advice for any future ditchings.
You certainly have a much greater understanding of the subject then I do. I'm just a bush pilot turned IFR guy trying to find my way.
cheers,
bb