SAR question...

[WSPS]

Hi chaps,

just a short SAR question:

a mate of mine has been flying SAR in the Navy and told me that they used to fly 'bout four hours each day. Mission or no mission. So it was those four hours regardless

Now what happens to commercial SAR crews these days? Is the same principle applied here, too?

Thanks for all info

Keep the rotor(s) in the green

WSPS

[cyclic gal]

SAR crews will normally carry out a training sortie twice per shift (SAR Missions notwithstanding). The shift will generally start around mid-day with an afternoon training sortie, stand-by overnight and a second training sortie before midday the following day, though it varies slightly from company to company. This is pretty much a rule of thumb and is dependant on many other variables. Weather, crew and/or aircraft hours (or lack of), techinical considerations etc. though crews are required to carry out a minimum number of hours in each discipline each year. Normal training sorties would generally be anything between 1 and 2 hours.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Routine Training

In Shannon we used to do one hour a day unless we had been out on a shout. If the Navy guys are doing 4 hours a day then they must have money to burn. In my day an hour a day was about average - but I suppose that was a long time ago!

G

[Night Watchman]

If you want the maths then each member of a UK CG SAR unit does roughly 200-250 flying hours a year (taskings and training). Because of the working time directive they can only work an average of 8 shifts per month (max duty hours 2000).

So on average a UK CG SAR pilot will achieve 2.1 to 2.6 flying hours per shift.

The number of training hours available hasn't changed with the new contracts (which were effectively decided by the military) so I assume the CG and the MOD are happy with maintaining that level of currency. Of course with harmonization the big question is will the number of training hours available be the same across the board for both civil and military pilots.

NW

[[email protected]]

Cyclic Gal - are you saying that you don't do training at night?

RAF crews have a 4 hour per day allocation which is usually 2 hrs day/ 2 hrs night.

[Night Watchman]

Cyclic Gal - are you saying that you don't do training at night?

Crab -stop stirring. Even you with your ' I hate civvy SAR attitude' must know that both civil SAR operations in the UK and Ireland all carry out night training to meet the requirements laid down in the contracts.

[The Ferret]

Rn Sar

I recently spent a few years as an aircraft commander on an RN SAR Roster and we would come on watch at 0800 and fly one day SAR Training Flight in a 24 hours shift and if anybody in the crew was not night current (2 hours that month) we would also fly a night training sortie (night cliff winching/night boats transfers etc). So on a normal 24 hr duty we would normally only fly one sortie of about 1.30 - not 4 hrs! If we flew at night we may fly 3hrs max plus any hours we flew on Shouts!

[[email protected]]

Night Watchman - so exactly how much training is mandated at night then?

[Night Watchman]

Night Watchman - so exactly how much training is mandated at night then?

You see, you are stirring. Have a look at CG3 the night flying and night deck requirements are all listed there.

[cyclic gal]

[quote=cyclic gal;2950594]though crews are required to carry out a minimum number of hours in each discipline each year.quote]

I'm sure you'll be aware that one of these disciplines is night flying of course.

[3D CAM]

Crab,
Good to se that your attitude is still the same! We will have fun with you come harmonisation?? If you can hack working with us lesser mortals that is!!!
Night watchman..well said in both your posts!

[cyclic]

Crab, you just can't help yourself can you. Our night flying requirements are the same as day - equal hours. Out of the military's 4 hours available how much of it used when most of the time the cabs are u/s?

In our operation we fly as much as we can at night within the constraints imposed, quite sensibly, by the CAA, company etc. No one in their right mind likes night flying and it is often the least practised discipline within the military and civil sectors. Proficiency at night is quite important when most of the shift is spent in the dark!

[detgnome]

cyclic - what figures do you have to factually back up your statement that the mil cabs are u/s most of the time - by which I take it you mean over 50%. Last time I looked we were well in excess of 98% availability. Additionally, by my reckoning the RAF cabs fly on average (a very rough average) 3.5 hours a day.

[cyclic]

DG

None whatsoever, just personal experience of 18 years flying for HM, most of it SAR. I have no authorative documents or statistics and I am not entering a bun fight as I really don't care whether you fly 3.5hrs or 4.0hrs. The point I was making was in response to Crab who immediately jumps in on anything to do with SAR and turns it into a p*ssing contest. I have flown SAR in both the military and civil sector and I can honestly say that the serviceability factor of the civil sector far outweighs the availability of HM's available hours for training. Unless the SK fleet has had a remarkable upturn in serviceability, I doubt much has changed.

I have never said that one side is better at the job than the other - I'll leave that to Crab as he has a monopoly on ill-informed bias.

[detgnome]

Cyclic - I find it slightly ironic that you say you do not want to get into bun fight when you are as guilty of mud slinging by making up some wildly unsubstantiated claims. Furthermore, you seem to be contradicting yourself when in one post you ask the question how much out of the 4 hrs is flown and then in your next post you say you don't really care!!!

Can you really say that in 18 years of mil aviation that the cabs were u/s most of the time i.e. more than 50%?

[[email protected]]

Dear oh dear, what a bunch of sensitive souls......I only asked a question.

But to quote Donald Duck Dunn from the Blues Brothers 'If the sh*t fits, wear it'

[ropedope]

quote "'If the sh*t fits, wear it'"...........whit i winker.
must get thas keyboird faxed.

[[email protected]]

And some fell on stony ground.......

[Night Watchman]

And some fell on stony ground.......

Crab,

Are you still talking about wearing sh*t or have you moved on to another one of your profound and philosophical arguments?

NW

[Sven Sixtoo]

Trg hours

Hi all (and Crab)

RAF SAR, as I understand it (and it's where I fly but not where I belong (which should make my ID obvious to all in the business), allows its crews to train for up to 4 hrs per day, with an allowance to 4:30 for Leconfield and Boulmer when they go mountain training to avoid the transit time limiting useful work.

It is permitted, but not required or enforced, to complete 4 hrs trg in a shift. I tend to do so, because I only get 2 capt shifts each month in which to meet the mandatory trg requirements. In my experience, most crews do about 3.5 hrs trg in a shift if they are not interrupted by operations (or, as has been mentioned, the generic unserviceability of the RAF SAR Force).

We are rule bound as regards training to be achieved. A very serious question for the analysts preparing the future SAR contracts is how much trg is needed. The current RAF standard is undoubtedly required for the low-hours first tourist pilots that form much of the RAF element of UK SAR (else how are they to progress to Op Capt in a reasonable time). It is also required for people like me (actually I think I'm unique) who do the job only occasionally to make sure we are up to scratch. Whether it is required for the majority of the RAF SARF, who have been in the business in their current appointment for 1000 hrs+, or for the RN crews who mostly have been somewhere and done that around the world, or for the civvie SAR crews who are mostly suberbly experienced before they ever came to civ SAR and have been there and done that, is debatable.

All this trg costs money. It improves our SAR capability. The question is what the tradeoff is between better kit and more trg to do the job better.

The future SAR contractor's bid will be the accepted answer to that. The question that the future SAR contractor has to answer has yet to be defined.

Sven