S300 - Share the cost anyone?
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S300 - Share the cost anyone?
I've got about 100hrs on the Schweizer 300 and after completing my ATPL(H) Theory course, I'm looking to build around 50hrs before the CPL(H) Course. I was just wondering if anybody in the SE/London area wanted to do some shared flying?
My only request is that I'm able to log the P1 flight time towards my 155hrs needed!
Many thanks,
KM
My only request is that I'm able to log the P1 flight time towards my 155hrs needed!
Many thanks,
KM
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Hi,
Can 2 pilots log P1 like in the US?
If not, what's the interest in sharing with you?
It's not even loggable for me, not even as "instruction received" since you are not FI...
Can 2 pilots log P1 like in the US?
If not, what's the interest in sharing with you?
It's not even loggable for me, not even as "instruction received" since you are not FI...
Hovering AND talking
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I'm in the same boat Kopterman (with slightly more hours!), what's in it for me? I pay half the cost and you log the hours. You won't get anyone wanting to particpate in that sort of scheme if they are a pilot as well. How much of the Air Law have you studied?
It seems as if you might be advertising for some pleasure flying?
Cheers
Whirls
It seems as if you might be advertising for some pleasure flying?
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
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Cheers
Whirls
...in a grumpy mood!
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I'm in the same boat Kopterman (with slightly more hours!), what's in it for me? I pay half the cost and you log the hours. You won't get anyone wanting to particpate in that sort of scheme if they are a pilot as well. How much of the Air Law have you studied?
It seems as if you might be advertising for some pleasure flying?
Cheers
Whirls
It seems as if you might be advertising for some pleasure flying?
Cheers
Whirls
This was in fact originally posted on the PPL Forum, intended for existing ppl(H) pilots that do not plan to carry on further with their studies and are thus not concerned about logging the P1 time!
I never mentioned that it would be a 50/50 share...assumptions are the mutha of all f****ups! I'm just simply looking for a possible win win scenario.
FYI I got a 92% pass mark in my Air Law exam, albeit over a year ago. There is nothing illegal about sharing costs - as far as I remember you are just not allowed to fly for renumeration!
Comments welcome...
KM
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Many thanks,
KM
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If you need the P1 time as well, then this is obviously not intended for you!
Regards,
KM
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Maybe I'm just being dense here, but I'm still not seeing the advantage to someone who actually has a PPL(H) in paying to be a pax. It would be different if you were looking for people who didn't have a PPL but wanted some cheap being-flown-around time.
Also, and I may well be wrong here, but isn't there a prohibition against advertising for people to share costs with in a public way, when flying on a PPL? I seem to remember that the rules went, it's ok to share costs, so long as the pilot pays at least his fair share, no more than 4 people in the aircraft, and the flight isn't advertised. I'm sure Flying Lawyer could answer this one!
Also, and I may well be wrong here, but isn't there a prohibition against advertising for people to share costs with in a public way, when flying on a PPL? I seem to remember that the rules went, it's ok to share costs, so long as the pilot pays at least his fair share, no more than 4 people in the aircraft, and the flight isn't advertised. I'm sure Flying Lawyer could answer this one!
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"If you need the P1 time as well, then this is obviously not intended for you!"
Then for whom is is intended?
Not for student pilot...
Not for "PPL that do not plan ..."
Please explain...
Yes, you never mentionned it was a 50/50 share, so what is it
If you don't mention it, then you are bound for "assumptions are the mutha of all f....ups!"
Don't get mad...just asking...
Then for whom is is intended?
Not for student pilot...
Not for "PPL that do not plan ..."
Please explain...
Yes, you never mentionned it was a 50/50 share, so what is it
If you don't mention it, then you are bound for "assumptions are the mutha of all f....ups!"
Don't get mad...just asking...
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Have you had second thought about this...
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You can log PIC if you already hold a PPL. So even if you have an instructor on board and perhaps, working toward a CPL or IR, all flight time can be logged as PIC. Down side is, if you then fly in JAR land and plan to use hours flown in the US, none of these PIC hours count.
LB
LB
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Is this legal or have I misunderstood (or been ill advised)?
Cheers,
KM
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She never took the controls of any airplane before.
Then I handed her the controls for a few minutes to get the feel.
She was then "sole manipulator of the controls".
What you are saying is: she can log PIC since she was sole manipulator of the controls, you cannot even though you were MEI and responsible for this flight?
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Originally Posted by Kopterman
This was in fact originally posted on the PPL Forum, intended for existing ppl(H) pilots that do not plan to carry on further with their studies and are thus not concerned about logging the P1 time!
I never mentioned that it would be a 50/50 share...assumptions are the mutha of all f****ups! I'm just simply looking for a possible win win scenario.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch so your win/win scenario is a trifle optimistic.
FYI I got a 92% pass mark in my Air Law exam, albeit over a year ago. There is nothing illegal about sharing costs - as far as I remember you are just not allowed to fly for renumeration!
I, along with a few others, cannot see who this offer is aimed at whether Rotorheads or Private Flying except a fixed wing pilot who may want a taster of rotary i.e. a pleasure flight. Why would any PPL(H) whether working towards a professional qualification or not, want to pay for hours they cannot log? Would you?
Cheers
Whirls
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I was recently informed by a CFI that in order to reduce costs I could fly with another ppl(h), say 50:50 split (in both terms of cost & time flown) and be allowed to log the whole flight time as PIC/P1 time?
Is this legal or have I misunderstood (or been ill advised)?
Cheers,
KM
Is this legal or have I misunderstood (or been ill advised)?
Cheers,
KM
So why mentioning now what your CFI told you about this "say 50:50 split"
@ Lightning_Boy
This is only correct, if the instructor acts as flight instructor. Two PPLs, which would be the case here, can not log both PIC-time. If the CFI does all the flying, he acts as the PIC and the PPL can not log PIC-time. That is the same for two CFIs flying together for fun and not for instruction. Only the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC. The only difference is, that when you, as a rated pilot, fly with a CFI who instructs you, you can log PIC-time. There is a reason to this and you can ask the FAA why they do things diffrent then the CAA which is the one and only real rule making agency in the world.
This is only correct, if the instructor acts as flight instructor. Two PPLs, which would be the case here, can not log both PIC-time. If the CFI does all the flying, he acts as the PIC and the PPL can not log PIC-time. That is the same for two CFIs flying together for fun and not for instruction. Only the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC. The only difference is, that when you, as a rated pilot, fly with a CFI who instructs you, you can log PIC-time. There is a reason to this and you can ask the FAA why they do things diffrent then the CAA which is the one and only real rule making agency in the world.
@ broottmeenoo
We were talking about rated pilots. Are you a CFI for MEL? If yes, she could have logged PIC time. If no, then not because you can not act as a CFI, therefore the stick time is useless for her.
If you are flying along in a helicopter and you are not rated for helicopters (but anything else like hot air ballon) and the flying pilot is not a CFI Rotorcraft acting as an instructor, then you can manipulate whatever you want as long as you like, you can not log PIC.
Yup, the FARs are sometimes as complicated as JAR. And sometimes the FAA has a completely different view then you.
The difference to JAR is, that you can log PIC when an Instructor is on bord acting as one and you are allready a rated pilot in that category (or class?) of aircraft. Otherwise no PIC.
We were talking about rated pilots. Are you a CFI for MEL? If yes, she could have logged PIC time. If no, then not because you can not act as a CFI, therefore the stick time is useless for her.
If you are flying along in a helicopter and you are not rated for helicopters (but anything else like hot air ballon) and the flying pilot is not a CFI Rotorcraft acting as an instructor, then you can manipulate whatever you want as long as you like, you can not log PIC.
Yup, the FARs are sometimes as complicated as JAR. And sometimes the FAA has a completely different view then you.
The difference to JAR is, that you can log PIC when an Instructor is on bord acting as one and you are allready a rated pilot in that category (or class?) of aircraft. Otherwise no PIC.
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With one exception (see below) I don't see anything illegal in what Kopterman has proposed.
He is not publishing information or advertising a flight. He could only do that under the conditions specified in (c) above. He is looking for people to cost share. The Private Flying forum has had a 'spare seat' thread (some cost-sharing, some free) for some time without, as far as I know, any problems.
I'm mystified by the almost aggressive tone of some posters here. Those who see no advantage for them won't take up the suggestion; others may. I suspect the idea may be more attractive to those without a PPL(H). He may or may not find anyone taking up his suggestion, but I don't understand the criticism of him for trying.
Kopterman
You can not "fly with another ppl(h), say 50:50 split (in both terms of cost & time flown) and be allowed to log the whole flight time as PIC/P1 time."
You have either misunderstood your CFI or been ill advised. You are only entitled to log the time you fly.
(Edit)
Whirlygig
Surely Kopter's response to the PPL(A) who 'wanted a go' as part of the cost share was entirely proper?
FL
Air Navigation Order 2005
160. Public transport and aerial work—exceptions—cost sharing
(1) ............... a flight shall be deemed to be a private flight if the only valuable consideration given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight falls within paragraph (2) and the the criteria in paragraph (3) are satisfied.
(2) Valuable consideration falls within this paragraph if it is —
160. Public transport and aerial work—exceptions—cost sharing
(1) ............... a flight shall be deemed to be a private flight if the only valuable consideration given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight falls within paragraph (2) and the the criteria in paragraph (3) are satisfied.
(2) Valuable consideration falls within this paragraph if it is —
(a) n/a
(b) n/a
(c) is a contribution to the direct costs of the flight otherwise payable by the pilot in command;
or falls within any two or all three sub-paragraphs.
(3) The criteria in this paragraph are satisfied if—(a) no more than 4 persons (including the pilot) are carried;
(b) the proportion which the contribution referred to in paragraph (2)(c) bears to the direct costs shall not exceed the proportion which the number of persons carried on the flight (excluding the pilot) bears to the number of persons carried (including the pilot);
(c) no information shall have been published or advertised prior to the commencement of the flight other than, in the case of an aircraft operated by a flying club, advertising wholly within the premises of such a flying club in which case all the persons carried on such a flight who are aged 18 years or over shall be members of that flying club; and
(d) n/a
I'm mystified by the almost aggressive tone of some posters here. Those who see no advantage for them won't take up the suggestion; others may. I suspect the idea may be more attractive to those without a PPL(H). He may or may not find anyone taking up his suggestion, but I don't understand the criticism of him for trying.
Kopterman
You can not "fly with another ppl(h), say 50:50 split (in both terms of cost & time flown) and be allowed to log the whole flight time as PIC/P1 time."
You have either misunderstood your CFI or been ill advised. You are only entitled to log the time you fly.
(Edit)
Whirlygig
Surely Kopter's response to the PPL(A) who 'wanted a go' as part of the cost share was entirely proper?
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 12th Oct 2006 at 13:10.