Copper-chopper "um..ah..well is it really an emergency??..."
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What is the technical difference between a HEMS and a Police heli (or any other heli in fact) in these Medevac situations ?
This is an important point in that HEMS are not a public service and do not have clearance for night time AD HOC landings.
A large proportion of Police casevacs for this reason occur at night which makes some sense due to the equipment they have on board IE FLIR camera, and nitesun, can be used to survey the landing site.
Hope this clears one point up for you THrre blades
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Very few if any. Police Helicopters only get called if the local helimeds are unavailable.
Also see PAOM Part 1
Section 5, chapter 2 page 1 for the rules, which seem somewhat contradictory but are what we have to work with. It may explain why some of us are reluctant to carry out casevac when it is NOT to safe life!
Also see PAOM Part 1
Section 5, chapter 2 page 1 for the rules, which seem somewhat contradictory but are what we have to work with. It may explain why some of us are reluctant to carry out casevac when it is NOT to safe life!
Tightgit
I was wondering how practical it is to combine hems and pas given that the required funding would be less?
Note. I appreciate that all the 'pure' air ambulance operations in England and Wales are funded by charity. Generally the contributors to that charity are the public, hence 'publicly fuded'. Think of it as voluntary directly targetted taxation!
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It strikes me that some people on this thread are trying to blame those who have to follow the rules for the stupid nature of those rules. Do remember that police pilots involved in flights where they were trying to save a life in extremis have been threatened with prosecution by our fine UK regulator for a possible breach of the rules. Those of us who do police work (like any professional pilot) have spent a fair bit of time and money getting our licences and experience. Many ASU managers also hang the crew out to dry in an effort to deflect flak from the Unit itself.
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Twiddle...It's alarmingly easy to combine casualty work and police work. It's rather more complex to combine HEMS and police work because HEMS is specifically funded by an external agency and is legislated under JARS as such, which is why police casevac has so many freedoms [night etc]...it's free, it's last option threat to life.
Handysnaks....it's not really a question of rural -v- urban being impractical, it's demonstrative of the fact that the emergency services would rather depend on separate funding [council tax -v- fundraising] than actually work together as integrated services.
Helinut...the rules aren't actually stupid, though they're not really clear. There are rules about carriage of public passengers and rules about medical passengers; the two sets of rules don't really make sense. As far as the in extremis cases go I am not aware of any cases where the individuals were threatened with prosecution. A CAA FOI phone call to query the facts [or more likely a CAA deafening silence] is not a threat of prosecution.
Handysnaks....it's not really a question of rural -v- urban being impractical, it's demonstrative of the fact that the emergency services would rather depend on separate funding [council tax -v- fundraising] than actually work together as integrated services.
Helinut...the rules aren't actually stupid, though they're not really clear. There are rules about carriage of public passengers and rules about medical passengers; the two sets of rules don't really make sense. As far as the in extremis cases go I am not aware of any cases where the individuals were threatened with prosecution. A CAA FOI phone call to query the facts [or more likely a CAA deafening silence] is not a threat of prosecution.
Interesting comments in all. First about the programme:
We have done 4 Tv programmes now and quite frankly are fed up with them all!! However we did learn a valid lesson very early on: DON'T TRUST THE MEDIA!! It is essential that you get them to show you the rushes and that the operator (C Constable) has the final editing say on what is shown.
Obviously this is a compromise because they want drama and you want a boring bullet proof documentary!!
Examples that sprung to mind during this recent TV programme with S Yorks:[This is meant to be constructive so please don't take it the wrong way........]
1. Make sure the backdrops are realistic. Continuity is essential).
2. Flying shot with engine(s) at idle.
3. First shot autumn followed by next shot summer.
4. Flying whilst back doors open (negates Perf Class One for starters) - also massive FOD hazard. (IF it was shot with a/c in hover, then make sure the camera crew pan out to show the hover)
5. The standing on the helmet scene gives the wrong message to viewers.
6. Flying in thunder/Lightning - it looked like you were flying inside or damned near the cell itself...which obviously is crass stupidity. Either you land or get the commentary to explain that the a/c wasn't in any real danger.
7. Dubbing alternative helicopter sounds (it sounded like the squirrel?) over the MD902 rotor sound is a cheap way to edit after the static takes.
TV documentaries are double edged swords - you have to totally control their editing or else it bites you big time.
CASEVAC Vs HEMS.
We do about 100+ HEMS a year and about 20 Casevacs.
HEMS is when you are airborne either because you are being paid to fly by the ambulance authority or you planned to carry a paramedic in the first instance. The magic word that differentiates one from the other is: INTENT. If you intend to take money off the ambulance trust and/or roster a paramedic to fly with you, you are a HEMS outfit (assuming the CAA give you the approval in the first palce).
HEMS is legislated for by JAR OPs3.
Casevac by ANO.
No HEMS at night because you need two pilots OR a HEMS crew member (paramedic) in the co-pilot seat AND approval to fly in your force area because the topography is suitable for single pilot ops. [Only WILTS have this approval in the police world).
Both definitions (HEMS and Casevac, more or less mean the same thing in terms of saving life. IF the patient is possibly/probably going to die - you pick them up.. no messing about.
The vagaries of "possibly/probably" will always lie in the anulls of medical prognosis and the CAA nor anyone else for that matter will ever be able to challenge the paramedics views.
For those who relish being filmed in future: the devils in the small print and don't believe a word they say
We have done 4 Tv programmes now and quite frankly are fed up with them all!! However we did learn a valid lesson very early on: DON'T TRUST THE MEDIA!! It is essential that you get them to show you the rushes and that the operator (C Constable) has the final editing say on what is shown.
Obviously this is a compromise because they want drama and you want a boring bullet proof documentary!!
Examples that sprung to mind during this recent TV programme with S Yorks:[This is meant to be constructive so please don't take it the wrong way........]
1. Make sure the backdrops are realistic. Continuity is essential).
2. Flying shot with engine(s) at idle.
3. First shot autumn followed by next shot summer.
4. Flying whilst back doors open (negates Perf Class One for starters) - also massive FOD hazard. (IF it was shot with a/c in hover, then make sure the camera crew pan out to show the hover)
5. The standing on the helmet scene gives the wrong message to viewers.
6. Flying in thunder/Lightning - it looked like you were flying inside or damned near the cell itself...which obviously is crass stupidity. Either you land or get the commentary to explain that the a/c wasn't in any real danger.
7. Dubbing alternative helicopter sounds (it sounded like the squirrel?) over the MD902 rotor sound is a cheap way to edit after the static takes.
TV documentaries are double edged swords - you have to totally control their editing or else it bites you big time.
CASEVAC Vs HEMS.
We do about 100+ HEMS a year and about 20 Casevacs.
HEMS is when you are airborne either because you are being paid to fly by the ambulance authority or you planned to carry a paramedic in the first instance. The magic word that differentiates one from the other is: INTENT. If you intend to take money off the ambulance trust and/or roster a paramedic to fly with you, you are a HEMS outfit (assuming the CAA give you the approval in the first palce).
HEMS is legislated for by JAR OPs3.
Casevac by ANO.
No HEMS at night because you need two pilots OR a HEMS crew member (paramedic) in the co-pilot seat AND approval to fly in your force area because the topography is suitable for single pilot ops. [Only WILTS have this approval in the police world).
Both definitions (HEMS and Casevac, more or less mean the same thing in terms of saving life. IF the patient is possibly/probably going to die - you pick them up.. no messing about.
The vagaries of "possibly/probably" will always lie in the anulls of medical prognosis and the CAA nor anyone else for that matter will ever be able to challenge the paramedics views.
For those who relish being filmed in future: the devils in the small print and don't believe a word they say
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Gentlemen.
Didn't see the programme, but from some of the comments regarding editing and this critical review of the decisions taken and actions carried-out, it all seems like every other 'fly on the wall' documentary about airborne response type helicopters. Many years ago an ITV company filmed a series called Rescue at Lossiemouth. Over the 12 months of filming there were many good things that were completely overlooked, and many pointless or embarrassing events that were highlighted. Indeed few of us escaped ridicule or criticism.
For those involved in this Police Helicopter documentary I wish you every success and keep up the good work. For those of you too ready to criticize, may you continue to be perfect in everything you do.
Didn't see the programme, but from some of the comments regarding editing and this critical review of the decisions taken and actions carried-out, it all seems like every other 'fly on the wall' documentary about airborne response type helicopters. Many years ago an ITV company filmed a series called Rescue at Lossiemouth. Over the 12 months of filming there were many good things that were completely overlooked, and many pointless or embarrassing events that were highlighted. Indeed few of us escaped ridicule or criticism.
For those involved in this Police Helicopter documentary I wish you every success and keep up the good work. For those of you too ready to criticize, may you continue to be perfect in everything you do.
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No Sky Cops being shown next week 
According to the beeb they are showing ( the last ? ) episode of "Vet Safari",
and the closest you get to a helicopter on that programme will be an R22
.... Now then - Sky+ ... was it the Green button, or the Blue button to set the timer recorder ?
- 2000 hrs on 4th November
According to the beeb they are showing ( the last ? ) episode of "Vet Safari",
and the closest you get to a helicopter on that programme will be an R22
.... Now then - Sky+ ... was it the Green button, or the Blue button to set the timer recorder ?
- 2000 hrs on 4th November
Avoid imitations
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Totally agree with the sentiments about supposed "good press" appearing as "bad press" because of the particular "angle" wanted by the TV documentary makers.
I point blank refused to take part to appear in person in a previous series of "Chopper Coppers", mainly because of family security concerns. I did some flying shots but only the back of my head appeared on TV, with the name tag removed from my flying helmet..
I point blank refused to take part to appear in person in a previous series of "Chopper Coppers", mainly because of family security concerns. I did some flying shots but only the back of my head appeared on TV, with the name tag removed from my flying helmet..
[Only WILTS have this approval in the police world)
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Thanks for the informed replies chaps. I did think that there was more to it than was broadcast during the show, but the way the medical evacuation flight came across on the programme was a bit too jobsworth for my liking. BTW, I had noticed some of the inconsistancies myself, hence my comment about the editing of the programme....There is another discussion going on about it here too, though not quite as informed by the look of it:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244766
It would seem that the nightime limitation on the dedicated privately funded Ambulance helicopters is quite a drawback, is there a case for having a medic with a Police chopper permanantly considering their greater capability?
Regards, SD..
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244766
It would seem that the nightime limitation on the dedicated privately funded Ambulance helicopters is quite a drawback, is there a case for having a medic with a Police chopper permanantly considering their greater capability?
Regards, SD..
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The Air Ambulance doesn't operate at night unless twin pilot (London HEMS I think) so the police units generally pick up most of the night time serious CASEVACs. As this can involve landing in a dark field on a dark, wet & windy night without the benefit of ATC/ground lights etc and relies on good SOP's/native cunning and experience to get down safely, you can bet your bottom dollar that the police a/c only want to go to 'life threatening' cases as stated by the doctor/paramedic at the scene. Unfortunately, police a/c have occasionally (I have had several) been called to 'life threatening' cases only to find the patient sat/stood chatting away happily with no threat to life, after a particularly sporty approach/landing.
The paramedic states that the Air Ambulance regularly goes to these type of cases in daylight so what is the problem! After a hearty de-brief we part wiser men (or women).
Genuine question.....what are the criteria regarding patients/casevacs and air ambulances. Are you a substitute for a ground vehicle on occasions if they are short. Are you life threatening only?
Apart from the odd misunderstanding, the PARAMEDICS do a fantastic job which I for one couldn't/wouldn't contemplate doing so they get my vote for a pay rise every time and a beer when I bump into them.
The paramedic states that the Air Ambulance regularly goes to these type of cases in daylight so what is the problem! After a hearty de-brief we part wiser men (or women). Genuine question.....what are the criteria regarding patients/casevacs and air ambulances. Are you a substitute for a ground vehicle on occasions if they are short. Are you life threatening only? Apart from the odd misunderstanding, the PARAMEDICS do a fantastic job which I for one couldn't/wouldn't contemplate doing so they get my vote for a pay rise every time and a beer when I bump into them.
