Angry Aussies
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1
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From: USA
Angry Aussies
A few of us ppruners are watching in amazement from afar as to why most of the posts that attack, complain, or just have a go at people and companies are done by the OZ crews.
Are there any good companies and staff left in OZ or is it just an Australian thing to knock everyone else. CHC, Australian, QR, and a number of Community providers all come under the hammer from various individuals.
Whats goin on guys? Too much time on your hands?
Are there any good companies and staff left in OZ or is it just an Australian thing to knock everyone else. CHC, Australian, QR, and a number of Community providers all come under the hammer from various individuals.
Whats goin on guys? Too much time on your hands?
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: All over the place for work
Lots of reasons as to why this occurs. Unfortunately, in the Oz industry, there are lots of companies and individuals who treat others like garbage and do not aim for best practice. Aside from a few innovative and profesisonal companies, and the corporates with money, Oz is littered with way too many old clapped out machines and to add to this, many aircrew are often underpaid and overworked and treated like trash. There are great companies such as CHC and Bristows, for which many people aspire to work with.
However, the vast majority of people spend their careers trying to find an employer who will maintain the machinary properly, pay enough to survive on (which is quite often a below average wage) and be treated like a person, not a commodity who is raped for everything they are worth. Many companies pay pilots with bare licences not more than $10-15US to start and they often work 60-70hrs a week. This does not improve that much until people have enough hrs to go to a large offshore company. The inbetween guys still do not earn much and the machines they fly are often 20-30 years of age.
The offshore market is one of only a rare few who pays enough for the average guy to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Our Government do not help with hefty fees for almost anything related to flying, with the impost of this borne by many aircrew.
These are but some of the reasons why many people in Oz complain. There are a lot of companies and managers who abuse their staff and do not set a good reputation anywhere for anything. Sure, there people with too much time on their hands, however the Australian industry is not really one to be celebrated. A few people, such as Bristows, CHC, EMQ (Queensland Government) have some initiative and put the best foot forward - but many also knock those who try and we sometimes suffer from tall poppy syndrome.
Maybe if we tried not undercutting all the time on jobs and everyone charged a fair rate, the industry would be much better overall. But the chronic effect of this is being felt by everyone everywhere and its the root cause of most problems within the indusrty.
That is my 2 cents worth anyway.
Over to anyone else....
However, the vast majority of people spend their careers trying to find an employer who will maintain the machinary properly, pay enough to survive on (which is quite often a below average wage) and be treated like a person, not a commodity who is raped for everything they are worth. Many companies pay pilots with bare licences not more than $10-15US to start and they often work 60-70hrs a week. This does not improve that much until people have enough hrs to go to a large offshore company. The inbetween guys still do not earn much and the machines they fly are often 20-30 years of age.
The offshore market is one of only a rare few who pays enough for the average guy to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Our Government do not help with hefty fees for almost anything related to flying, with the impost of this borne by many aircrew.
These are but some of the reasons why many people in Oz complain. There are a lot of companies and managers who abuse their staff and do not set a good reputation anywhere for anything. Sure, there people with too much time on their hands, however the Australian industry is not really one to be celebrated. A few people, such as Bristows, CHC, EMQ (Queensland Government) have some initiative and put the best foot forward - but many also knock those who try and we sometimes suffer from tall poppy syndrome.
Maybe if we tried not undercutting all the time on jobs and everyone charged a fair rate, the industry would be much better overall. But the chronic effect of this is being felt by everyone everywhere and its the root cause of most problems within the indusrty.
That is my 2 cents worth anyway.
Over to anyone else....
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Norway
Austalian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP
From what I know the CHC pilots in Australia are members of AFAP. http://www.afap.org.au.
Is this the case for most helicopter pilots in Australia, or are the majority "strong and proud" individuals who like to go it alone?
If not already a member, joining AFAP would be a constructive first step to get in touch with other professionals within the helicopter community.
Is this the case for most helicopter pilots in Australia, or are the majority "strong and proud" individuals who like to go it alone?
If not already a member, joining AFAP would be a constructive first step to get in touch with other professionals within the helicopter community.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Vic.Aust
Australia is a very small community in Helicopters. AFAP is a worthy cause if you work for the CHC or Bristow environment, they pay well and pilots are looked after fairly well. The piot on a crap wage cannot afford the protection of AFAP. The problem of crap money is deeper entrenched than the Management of most of the Oz Helicopter Operators, Casa has favourites, and will always treat the so called fav's. Some of these favourites are the main contenders for low wages and crap arse pilot conditions, short cuts on maintenance. So a new operator that re-invests money back into their aircraft and pays above award wages find it difficult to win contacts.
Hence we end up with companies like ah, contracts coming out of their ears but massive staff turn over. Casa should not be called our regulator, but our deregulator.
Hence we end up with companies like ah, contracts coming out of their ears but massive staff turn over. Casa should not be called our regulator, but our deregulator.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Is it any wonder.
Here is a good example of what pilots are up against in Australia.
Australia: Young Guy 25 years old. 2000 hours total time. On call 7 days a week. Flying at least 5 of those days. Away from home fairly regularly. Flying roughly 700 hours a year for the last two years. Earning a fixed salary if $40,000 per annum.
Canada: Same guy. Same experience. Working 4 weeks on two weeks off. Still away from home for most of his tour. Flying 700 hours per year. Earning at least $70,000. Far more oppertunities for endorsements and movement within the company.
No wonder the boys down there are bitter.
Australia: Young Guy 25 years old. 2000 hours total time. On call 7 days a week. Flying at least 5 of those days. Away from home fairly regularly. Flying roughly 700 hours a year for the last two years. Earning a fixed salary if $40,000 per annum.
Canada: Same guy. Same experience. Working 4 weeks on two weeks off. Still away from home for most of his tour. Flying 700 hours per year. Earning at least $70,000. Far more oppertunities for endorsements and movement within the company.
No wonder the boys down there are bitter.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
From: On the move...
The operators are afraid to charge realistic prices for services because the next guy will just under cut them. The end-user/customer doesn't use helicopters often enough to know the differences between good and bad service or quality of aircraft to see which company is really better. 'The job got done, and that’s all that matters.' All they care about is the bottom line, $$.
Simply put, the operators can’t afford to pay more than a ‘fly for food’ wage because it’s too cut throat. HAA and AFAP can’t tell an operator to abide by the law and actually pay real money to pilots. The pilot’s won’t dob in a non-paying company because then they lose their job and the next pilot comes along to take what flying they can, again for free.
One operator I spoke to said, ‘I’m trying to run a business, not a charity.’ And yet he wanted volunteer staff.
Simply put, the operators can’t afford to pay more than a ‘fly for food’ wage because it’s too cut throat. HAA and AFAP can’t tell an operator to abide by the law and actually pay real money to pilots. The pilot’s won’t dob in a non-paying company because then they lose their job and the next pilot comes along to take what flying they can, again for free.
One operator I spoke to said, ‘I’m trying to run a business, not a charity.’ And yet he wanted volunteer staff.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: AGL
Nearly all the above points and problems with Australian operations apply to the nation just across the Tasman Sea but it appears that there is not quite the same amount of bitterness amongst the forum posters. Could it be cultural?
And no, there are still a lot of pilots in NZ, they have not all moved to Australia as I sure someone will suggest.
And no, there are still a lot of pilots in NZ, they have not all moved to Australia as I sure someone will suggest.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: Outback
EBCAU,
Maybe it is cultural, In australia it is all about everyone having " a fair go ".
The operators have had their's, now it is our turn.
Trust me when I say I hate whingers, and that is what a lot of people are doing on this site. People bitch and whine about operators but won't change jobs or complain to the people who matter.
Maybe it is cultural, In australia it is all about everyone having " a fair go ".
The operators have had their's, now it is our turn.
Trust me when I say I hate whingers, and that is what a lot of people are doing on this site. People bitch and whine about operators but won't change jobs or complain to the people who matter.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Australia
The same problem also exists on the F/W side of the industry,but on a larger scale in Oz as well. Go touring that's where the money is,get good at something,ie long linning, Ag or something and go for it,there are plenty of good operators in far flung countries looking for tour pilots.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
From: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
My Pu - - y hurts!!!
And if it all gets too hard and peoples Pu- - ys get too sore, then leave and do something else so the rest of us can get on with business.
Options do exist for a better deal. Up skill, go OS, and don't work for FREE!!!!! The Mil are always looking for drivers and the $$$$ are far in excess of what has been talked of in this thread.
My 22 1/2 cents.
Max
Options do exist for a better deal. Up skill, go OS, and don't work for FREE!!!!! The Mil are always looking for drivers and the $$$$ are far in excess of what has been talked of in this thread.
My 22 1/2 cents.
Max
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: AGL
Blade Root,
You are right. I also think that the time is coming for pilots to start calling the shots. They've been oppressed for long enough. Only by jumping ship to better your lot will you get anywhere.
Loyalty to a company is seldom rewarded, and that's not just an Aussie thing in my experience. The pilots that arrive, chat up the boss, promise the world, get the new endorsement, move on, and up, are the most successful.
Hopefully there is going to be more opportunty to move on and up for more of us - if the talked about experience shortage is real.
You are right. I also think that the time is coming for pilots to start calling the shots. They've been oppressed for long enough. Only by jumping ship to better your lot will you get anywhere.
Loyalty to a company is seldom rewarded, and that's not just an Aussie thing in my experience. The pilots that arrive, chat up the boss, promise the world, get the new endorsement, move on, and up, are the most successful.
Hopefully there is going to be more opportunty to move on and up for more of us - if the talked about experience shortage is real.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 224
Likes: 2
From: Depends on the day!
bladeblitz
how dare you call Aussies angry you
in cheeky half smart wit. I'm sure that all my useless, bludging, whinging and whining fellow country men, who, are nowhere near as talented and capable as myself by the way, would, in there own pathetic and ridiculous way, agree with me.Therefore on behalf of me and all the other Aussies you can go and yourself with the rough end of a pineapple you face. Where the did you get the impression we were angry you ker
FOR 'S IN SAKE
how dare you call Aussies angry you
in cheeky half smart wit. I'm sure that all my useless, bludging, whinging and whining fellow country men, who, are nowhere near as talented and capable as myself by the way, would, in there own pathetic and ridiculous way, agree with me.Therefore on behalf of me and all the other Aussies you can go and yourself with the rough end of a pineapple you face. Where the did you get the impression we were angry you ker FOR
'S IN SAKE
Last edited by bellfest; 15th September 2006 at 06:01. Reason: additional anger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
From: CA
There are no whinging south sea poms/kiwi's cause they are all too busy working 16hrs a day, 7 days a week and computers and internet costs money which they can't afford.
The rest of them (90%) are in Australia, PNG, Canada and the UK or planning to be there soon...
The rest of them (90%) are in Australia, PNG, Canada and the UK or planning to be there soon...
bellfest
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
From: Australia
. Don't drive angry.
Tistisnot, I gotta ask...it that 'Tis tis not' or 'Tisti snot'...sorry, I couldn't help myeslf.
HP
Last edited by helopat; 15th September 2006 at 08:53. Reason: Chuckling uncontrollably...
