Flying is not for you ...
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Flying is not for you ...
Ok there's been too much bitching on Prune recently, so lets lighten the mood and get some real discussion going.
Another "FlightOops" hypothetical situation to ponder:
You're an instructor, type irrelevant, you've done a season of instruction already so you've learnt a few lessons; sent quite a few students solo; and taken a few PPL's right through to test.
Then Mr ****eForBrains decides you are the instructor that will get him through.
At nearly 50 odd hours he's only gone solo once which scared the crap out of you to watch, insisted on more instruction and yet he doesn't seem to be making any progress.
You have successfully got previous students past their "brick wall" and then onto test, so you're puzzling over why Mr. SFB can't get it.
Other instructors then fly with him and it turns out he's an "un-natural" and is never likely to get the hang of it - more importantly his airmanship is so dire you're worried he's going to hurt himself;friends;family;other aviators.
Questions:
Caveats:
Hope this generates some healthy debate - lets keep the RPM in the green on this one - no slanging matches or references to Australians please -
.
FO
Another "FlightOops" hypothetical situation to ponder:
You're an instructor, type irrelevant, you've done a season of instruction already so you've learnt a few lessons; sent quite a few students solo; and taken a few PPL's right through to test.
Then Mr ****eForBrains decides you are the instructor that will get him through.
At nearly 50 odd hours he's only gone solo once which scared the crap out of you to watch, insisted on more instruction and yet he doesn't seem to be making any progress.
You have successfully got previous students past their "brick wall" and then onto test, so you're puzzling over why Mr. SFB can't get it.
Other instructors then fly with him and it turns out he's an "un-natural" and is never likely to get the hang of it - more importantly his airmanship is so dire you're worried he's going to hurt himself;friends;family;other aviators.
Questions:
- How to you approach the subject of telling him he should take up lawn bowls instead of flying ?
- Do you feel there should be a progress check point (say @ 20 ~ 30hrs) where an asessment is made as to whether a student is likely to get their PPL?
- How do you react if he insists on continuing to fly as the money is "no object" and he'll keep at it until he passes (even though you know he never will)?
- Should you warn other schools of his inability in case he does the rounds?
- Should your opinion be ..."well if he wants to kill himself so be it" ?
- Do you think the error is with your instructional style and that there is a particluar student / instructor ratio that will always work (each student has a unique instructor style that will work for them) ?
Caveats:
- Mrs. SFB could be equally difficult so gender is irrelevant
- I am not an instructor although I've seen some shockers in my time on the ground at schools
- The flying school is struggling with their cash-flow and his revenue is important
Hope this generates some healthy debate - lets keep the RPM in the green on this one - no slanging matches or references to Australians please -
.FO
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Flightoops....It's actually very simpel. Always set standards. Give mr.SFB a pre-set standard, and untill he meets the standard, he can just keep paying.
Just make sure he knows the standards set by the CAA.
Just be nice about it...when he's done 200 hrs of coordinated turns with airspeed outside standards he might catch the drift.
And mayby stop calling him SFB
Just make sure he knows the standards set by the CAA.
Just be nice about it...when he's done 200 hrs of coordinated turns with airspeed outside standards he might catch the drift.
And mayby stop calling him SFB
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It depends, if the student in question is really dangerous and makes serious absolutely unpredictables mistakes, I quit. I had one student who made the strangest cockups, I kept on going let other instructors fly with him, but we all had to conclude we where really feeling unsafe and he didn't seem to have the talent. At the fourth attempt to kill us both, I quit.
He went on with other instructors and finally after a lot of hours got his licence. So maybe I should have continued and make the money.
As said before stage checks are really important, and if somebody is unsuitable I don't want the responsibility to send him solo.
He went on with other instructors and finally after a lot of hours got his licence. So maybe I should have continued and make the money.
As said before stage checks are really important, and if somebody is unsuitable I don't want the responsibility to send him solo.
I haven't instructed for a while now, but i remember one student who scared the **** out of me.
This guy was huge - he could bench press a mini van - which made him dangerous because he would never relax on the controls. He seemed to get tunnel vision, to the point where he couldn't even turn his neck - or relinquish control. I had to give up with him eventually because I realised if anything had gone wrong he would have fought me on the controls - and won.
This guy was huge - he could bench press a mini van - which made him dangerous because he would never relax on the controls. He seemed to get tunnel vision, to the point where he couldn't even turn his neck - or relinquish control. I had to give up with him eventually because I realised if anything had gone wrong he would have fought me on the controls - and won.
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How about being honest with him.
Tell him that he will probably never ever make it but leave the option that he can continue to fly as long and as often as he wants to... with a flight instructor next to him.
Than it's up to him if he wants to spend more money on it or not.
Tell him that he will probably never ever make it but leave the option that he can continue to fly as long and as often as he wants to... with a flight instructor next to him.
Than it's up to him if he wants to spend more money on it or not.
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Quite an interesting topic since I may be on the receiving end in a couple of month when I will start my training.
So may I ask those questions:
I understand that learning is not a linear phase and there might be some period where you reach a plateau before learning stuff again, but at what point/flight time/number of lessons do you consider a student being hopeless? Is it like the first 2-3hrs, after 10 lessons, what's an average?
On the other end, is there a way I could consider MYSELF hopeless if my instructor is just here to build hours and does not say a word about this?
So may I ask those questions:
I understand that learning is not a linear phase and there might be some period where you reach a plateau before learning stuff again, but at what point/flight time/number of lessons do you consider a student being hopeless? Is it like the first 2-3hrs, after 10 lessons, what's an average?
On the other end, is there a way I could consider MYSELF hopeless if my instructor is just here to build hours and does not say a word about this?
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Every learning curve has learning plateaus. But that has nothing to do with being hopeless. We know when a student is at that stage, and work around that.
Being hopeless somebody making serious mistakes like closing the throttle completely at 100 ft on approach, after 25 hours. Going full forward on the cyclic when entering an autorotation, after having done quite a lot. I can name a whole list.
Your instructor will tell you how you are progressing. He has to keep you informed. It's impossible for a student himself to determine how his progression is. I keep student progression sheets, where I grade the student, this is done during the debriefing. So the student knows where he is at.
Hillerbee
Being hopeless somebody making serious mistakes like closing the throttle completely at 100 ft on approach, after 25 hours. Going full forward on the cyclic when entering an autorotation, after having done quite a lot. I can name a whole list.
Your instructor will tell you how you are progressing. He has to keep you informed. It's impossible for a student himself to determine how his progression is. I keep student progression sheets, where I grade the student, this is done during the debriefing. So the student knows where he is at.
Hillerbee
Where I do agree with you, MrWellington, is that SFB might really just be angry about being called SFB.
HP
The Original Whirly
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This is a difficult one. I know several pilots, both f/w and rotary, who were told early on that they wouldn't make it. Two of those people are now instructors themselves! People learn at incredibly different rates. It's very hard to be sure that someone will never learn. And 20-30 hours certainly isn't enough - maybe....60-70, don't know the exact figure, but some people are slow but will get there in the end.
The lack of airmanship is more worrying; in fact, that IS worrying, far more than the lack of aptitude.
Possibly there are some people who'll never make it, but there are far, far more who are told they won't by second-rate instructors.
That's all my thoughts so far after a very long day.
The lack of airmanship is more worrying; in fact, that IS worrying, far more than the lack of aptitude.
Possibly there are some people who'll never make it, but there are far, far more who are told they won't by second-rate instructors.
That's all my thoughts so far after a very long day.
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Agree, but if this person with surplus greens to burn says "at any cost", don't you just give the person what he wants ? Ofcourse you inform him of his chances, but hey, people are know to not accept reality. Elvis Presley wanted to be a secret agent....no kidding....they gave him a badge !!
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I agree with Whirly, it's not only the physical aspect. Some people just don't make a good pilot. I personally think there should be more emphasis on aeronautical decision making. I also think there should be maximum hours instead of only minimum hours. As mentioned before in the RAF/Army/Navy you have certain numbers to make stage checks and final check and if you don't make those though luck. Of course before even be admitted to the training you have to do aptitude tests etc. Shouldn't the commercial world do the same? Obviously this would have to be imposed by the Aviation Authorities. I know this would/will upset a lot of people.
I fully understand that everybody should have the right to become a pilot, but really think some people shouldn't be flying.
I fully understand that everybody should have the right to become a pilot, but really think some people shouldn't be flying.
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when I started learning to fly heli's like most people I found hovering "difficult" the more pressure the student is put under, the longer it takes for him / her to get it, then for no apparent reason, you can do it, and you wonder what all the fuss was about, I don't class myself as a SFB, and I do recall 1 instructor, getting, um " annoyed " with me, it didn't help at all
in fact a change of instructor was all that was required.
I'd suggest, being honest with your students, and if you feel he/ she isn't going to make it, a check flight with the CFI should be arranged, but, don't tell the student, untill he / she arrives for the lesson
in fact a change of instructor was all that was required.
I'd suggest, being honest with your students, and if you feel he/ she isn't going to make it, a check flight with the CFI should be arranged, but, don't tell the student, untill he / she arrives for the lesson
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I have had Mr SFB as a student, but I will call him Crapferbrains.
CFB came to my school from another school, because ours was closer to his home. He had a bucketful of money (he was in the money market), and according to his student records, he was progressing nicely and was nearly ready for solo. He wanted to go straight through to commercial.
Well, the first flight was a doozy, he had no idea what attitude was, couldn't fly straight and level, and definitely couldn't hover. In fact, he seemed to have precious little talent at all, and I realised that The Other School was waltzing him along to make sure they got his money. I told him we would be going back to basics, he didn't mind, he wanted to "do it right." We stuffed around for a couple of months of weekends, but the pressure of his work stopped him from doing any study, and he made zero progress.
A couple of weeks later, he declared that he wanted to finish the CPLH groundschool with me in one big hit, having already had a lot of schooling with The Other School, so we scheduled 3 weeks straight. He even deposited $25,000 with us to cover school and the rest of the flying course.
After 2 weeks of ground school in the morning and flying in the afternoon, I told him that he would never cut it as a commercial pilot. He still hadn't made it to solo after 50 hours. He had $13,000 left in his account, and I gave it back to him.
he thanked me for being honest.
Two weeks later, he rings me and says that he went back to The Other School, got 83% overall in the exam, and the following week he passed the CPL ride - with THEIR testing officer.
Shortly afterwards, he lobbed into our heliport in a JetRanger, took on a full load of gas, put in 4 big boofy guys, 5 sets of golf clubs, and lurched into the sky for a golf course 3000' amsl. Amazingly, the machine got off the ground, and even got back again.
He is now in another state. Luckily he is never likely to be in my airspace again.
Footnote: The Other School was subsequently busted for exam fraud (staff doing the exams for students), the CFI was booted, but the school still exists.
CFB came to my school from another school, because ours was closer to his home. He had a bucketful of money (he was in the money market), and according to his student records, he was progressing nicely and was nearly ready for solo. He wanted to go straight through to commercial.
Well, the first flight was a doozy, he had no idea what attitude was, couldn't fly straight and level, and definitely couldn't hover. In fact, he seemed to have precious little talent at all, and I realised that The Other School was waltzing him along to make sure they got his money. I told him we would be going back to basics, he didn't mind, he wanted to "do it right." We stuffed around for a couple of months of weekends, but the pressure of his work stopped him from doing any study, and he made zero progress.
A couple of weeks later, he declared that he wanted to finish the CPLH groundschool with me in one big hit, having already had a lot of schooling with The Other School, so we scheduled 3 weeks straight. He even deposited $25,000 with us to cover school and the rest of the flying course.
After 2 weeks of ground school in the morning and flying in the afternoon, I told him that he would never cut it as a commercial pilot. He still hadn't made it to solo after 50 hours. He had $13,000 left in his account, and I gave it back to him.
he thanked me for being honest.Two weeks later, he rings me and says that he went back to The Other School, got 83% overall in the exam, and the following week he passed the CPL ride - with THEIR testing officer.
Shortly afterwards, he lobbed into our heliport in a JetRanger, took on a full load of gas, put in 4 big boofy guys, 5 sets of golf clubs, and lurched into the sky for a golf course 3000' amsl. Amazingly, the machine got off the ground, and even got back again.
He is now in another state. Luckily he is never likely to be in my airspace again.
Footnote: The Other School was subsequently busted for exam fraud (staff doing the exams for students), the CFI was booted, but the school still exists.
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Whirly I think you're on to something. Modern aircraft are designed to be flown by average people. Considering that flying is equal parts motor skill and intellectual endeavour, anyone who is able bodied and of normal intelligence should be able to learn to fly competently (competently, not brilliantly!). The only obvious exception I can think of is the 'mentally unstable'. I mean, if you're coocoo then obviously you're out.
So, assuming that your 50 hour student has not given you reason to believe he is, in fact, insane, you should probably review your training, identify the specific shortcomings in both this gentleman's style of flying and your style of teaching, and make adjustments where neccessary. Oh, and stop calling him ****-for-brains, even behind his back.
Having said all that, I'm glad he's your student and not mine, ha!
So, assuming that your 50 hour student has not given you reason to believe he is, in fact, insane, you should probably review your training, identify the specific shortcomings in both this gentleman's style of flying and your style of teaching, and make adjustments where neccessary. Oh, and stop calling him ****-for-brains, even behind his back.
Having said all that, I'm glad he's your student and not mine, ha!
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If a student demonstrates in some way that they will never be "airworthy" I think it's our duty to see that they don't be given the ability to hurt themselves and others (us!)
Disguise Delimit's tale show's why just ceasing flying with a student (although it's often our only choice, and I've done it too) will not always stop that student achieving their "dream" through force of $$$. If we're really concerned, we may need to persue something like the following...
The wording in the following is a little strong (i.e. "phychological abnormality"), but I think the sentiment of the passage relates to the matter at hand.
Disguise Delimit's tale show's why just ceasing flying with a student (although it's often our only choice, and I've done it too) will not always stop that student achieving their "dream" through force of $$$. If we're really concerned, we may need to persue something like the following...
The wording in the following is a little strong (i.e. "phychological abnormality"), but I think the sentiment of the passage relates to the matter at hand.
From the FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR ACTIONS
REGARDING SERIOUSLY ABNORMAL STUDENTS
A flight instructor who believes a student may be suffering from a serious psychological abnormality has a responsibility to refrain from certifying that
student. In addition, a flight instructor has the personal responsibility of assuring that such a person does not continue flight training or become certificated as a pilot. To accomplish this, the following steps are available: 2-6
• If an instructor believes that a student may have a disqualifying psychological defect, arrangements should be made for another instructor, who is not acquainted with the student, to conduct an evaluation
flight. After the flight, the two instructors should confer to determine whether they agree that further investigation or action is justified.
• An informal discussion should be initiated with the local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), suggesting that the student may be able to meet the
skill standards, but may be unsafe psychologically. This action should be taken as soon as a question arises regarding the student’s fitness. It should not be delayed until the student feels competent to solo.
• A discussion should be held with a local aviation medical examiner (AME), preferably the one who issued the student’s medical certificate, to obtain
advice and to decide on the possibility of further examination of the student.
The flight instructor’s primary legal responsibility concerns the decision whether to certify the student to be competent for solo flight operations, or to make a recommendation for the practical test leading to certification
as a pilot. If, after consultation with an unbiased instructor, the FSDO, and the AME, the instructor believes that the student suffers a serious psychological deficiency, such authorizations and recommendations must be withheld.
FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR ACTIONS
REGARDING SERIOUSLY ABNORMAL STUDENTS
A flight instructor who believes a student may be suffering from a serious psychological abnormality has a responsibility to refrain from certifying that
student. In addition, a flight instructor has the personal responsibility of assuring that such a person does not continue flight training or become certificated as a pilot. To accomplish this, the following steps are available: 2-6
• If an instructor believes that a student may have a disqualifying psychological defect, arrangements should be made for another instructor, who is not acquainted with the student, to conduct an evaluation
flight. After the flight, the two instructors should confer to determine whether they agree that further investigation or action is justified.
• An informal discussion should be initiated with the local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), suggesting that the student may be able to meet the
skill standards, but may be unsafe psychologically. This action should be taken as soon as a question arises regarding the student’s fitness. It should not be delayed until the student feels competent to solo.
• A discussion should be held with a local aviation medical examiner (AME), preferably the one who issued the student’s medical certificate, to obtain
advice and to decide on the possibility of further examination of the student.
The flight instructor’s primary legal responsibility concerns the decision whether to certify the student to be competent for solo flight operations, or to make a recommendation for the practical test leading to certification
as a pilot. If, after consultation with an unbiased instructor, the FSDO, and the AME, the instructor believes that the student suffers a serious psychological deficiency, such authorizations and recommendations must be withheld.
The Original Whirly
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Shortly afterwards, he lobbed into our heliport in a JetRanger, took on a full load of gas, put in 4 big boofy guys, 5 sets of golf clubs, and lurched into the sky for a golf course 3000' amsl. Amazingly, the machine got off the ground, and even got back again.
But lack of aptitude? I don't know. Sometimes all it takes is identifying the problem. As a very new instructor, I was asked to fly with a chap who had over 40 hours and hadn't gone solo. Well, we did a circuit, and he was actually quite good...to start with. But as soon as he had to use the radio in the air, he got confused, couldn't think what to say, lost it, and we ended up about 1000 feet above circuit height. Next circuit, he did it again. So I did the radio for him, and he was fine. So we sat and had a long chat about him learning the calls, and knowing what possible answers to expect, and making those calls early to give himself time. Later, I did some private groundschool with him, as he'd left school at about 13, wasn't that bright, and couldn't work out what to do. All I did was show the relevance of some of the book stuff to what he was doing, and talk about learning in small chunks, and help him make a study plan. He passed the the first exam, and I lost my private groundschool job - he realised he didn't need me. And I presume he learned to use the radio and fly at the same time, as he eventually got his PPL.
All this chap needed was some intelligent instructing, based on HIS needs, not just on the books! He'd flown with loads of instructors, most far more experienced than I was at the time. Why didn't they identify the problem?
I daresay some people don't have the physical coordination etc to actually ever learn to fly, but if that's the case, they'll realise it themselves in the end...unless they're loonies as well.
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Do you c**p all over someone's dream?
If the innate ability to learn is there (which in most human beings, is) and the desire to learn, adapt, and learn some more is there, then a student should not be discouraged, I believe.
Learning curves and styles are different for everyone....with some people, they learn one idea at a time, sequentially and are meticulous, which requires months of patience by the teacher until all the ideas are learned; others, can learn multi-tasking easily but get overconfident and aren't meticulous, which requires rework by the teacher. Finally, throw in the personality of the teacher with the student, and the student with the teacher, emotions of getting up in the air and then landing the machine, and there can be some significant human factors to overcome.
I think if communication is not straightforward and honest, a student can instinctively pick up on when a teacher is not being honest with them, or dissatisfied. Then the learning stops and a wall is built up between them. The student is self-conscious and that causes additional stress or a complete shutdown of learning.
Progress always needs to be discussed, honestly, and openly but without exasperation on the side of the teacher.
And yes, if you are teaching and consider someone "****eforbrains" maybe you aren't the best person to be instructing with that attitude towards a human being.
Learning curves and styles are different for everyone....with some people, they learn one idea at a time, sequentially and are meticulous, which requires months of patience by the teacher until all the ideas are learned; others, can learn multi-tasking easily but get overconfident and aren't meticulous, which requires rework by the teacher. Finally, throw in the personality of the teacher with the student, and the student with the teacher, emotions of getting up in the air and then landing the machine, and there can be some significant human factors to overcome.
I think if communication is not straightforward and honest, a student can instinctively pick up on when a teacher is not being honest with them, or dissatisfied. Then the learning stops and a wall is built up between them. The student is self-conscious and that causes additional stress or a complete shutdown of learning.
Progress always needs to be discussed, honestly, and openly but without exasperation on the side of the teacher.
And yes, if you are teaching and consider someone "****eforbrains" maybe you aren't the best person to be instructing with that attitude towards a human being.