mini gun
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I stand corrected, the .50 cal window gatling guns on the DAP are GAU-19 not GAU-8.
Bat-off asked "Nick; if I may ask, how did you guys go about firing at night?"
Nick says: Very carefully, the night missions were night contact, with use of flares or the glow of enemy fire to guide us. We also used crude NVG's ("starlight scopes") in a lead huey that then showed a light on the target to point it out to us. I had about 125 hours of night combat using these methods, and more than a few sampans were sunk that way.
The skid-less Cobra in the pic is the first Bell demonstrator that showed the concept, it had retractable skids for speed, unlike its production cousins.
Bat-off asked "Nick; if I may ask, how did you guys go about firing at night?"
Nick says: Very carefully, the night missions were night contact, with use of flares or the glow of enemy fire to guide us. We also used crude NVG's ("starlight scopes") in a lead huey that then showed a light on the target to point it out to us. I had about 125 hours of night combat using these methods, and more than a few sampans were sunk that way.
The skid-less Cobra in the pic is the first Bell demonstrator that showed the concept, it had retractable skids for speed, unlike its production cousins.
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Bat,
The 2.75" rockets were the money weapon, longer range, lots of punch. We would engage in diving fire at an altitude of about 1200 to 1800 feet AGL, usually starting to shoot at about 2 Km, and break away at about 1 Km. The turret was used to cover the break as we turned away (and as our wingman started putting fire on the target).
At night, the rockets would make an enormous ball of flame on launch that would last about 1 second and of course follow the rockets downrange. The turret would make a continuous ball of flame about 5 feet in diameter, a weird yellow-green color. Believe it or not, we would shut our eyes momentarily when shooting to preserve what night vision we had! After the rockets were gone (easily told by the sound) we would open back up again to see the effect. When the turret was fired, the back seater would duck below the glare shield to avoid direct view of the flame. None of this avoidance worked very well, after a few runs, we would have to regain our night adaptation.
The flares were very effective, a Huey would drop them above us, timing them so that we almost always had one or two illuminating the scene. They were very effective, each one lighting a circle about 1/2 mile in diameter, so a good Huey crew could keep the whole mission in almost-daylight. It was a miracle that no flare chutes fell into rotors, but that was not our biggest fear by a long shot (pun intended).
The enemy's fire was easily seen as his tracers arced upward and his muzzle flashes winked along the ground. The biggest green tracers were 12.7mm, an awsome weapon for us to face. I had to engage a 50 cal pit once at night on a Night Hawk mission. The Night Hawk was a Huey with a starlight scope and a ring of C-130 landing lights that were able to be focused into a spot on the ground below. We all taped our lights out, with the upper rotating beacon allowed to glow upward only. This kept us invisible to those below until we shot. The Huey was at about 800 feet and about a mile ahead, I was in a position just above his altitude to see the red dot of his anti-collision light. All I had to do was just rock forward and be in a gun run to the point just below him. At the right time, the Huey would flip the big light on, and we would engage the bad guys below. On one mission, the target was a 50 cal, and his tracers passed both sides of my windows for the whole dive, as I walked 20mm around the base of the lights for the 20 seconds of the dive (felt like a decade) as we literally were jousting each other. The 20mm HEI explosions were winking small circles of light around his muzzle flashes, and I am sure he was guiding on my muzzle flashes as well. I could not break, he had us too well sighted, and if I turned, the 3 foot wide Cobra would present too much area to escape unhit. I broke at about 500 feet, and when I did, there was no fire from that pit. I am sure their lack of response was not voluntary.
The turret was also used for immediate fire, as we covered the LOH in a recon mission. We would fly a circle around him at about 800 feet for the low snake and 1200 feet for the wingman. The low snake could put immediate gun fire around the LOH by keeping the turret continuously pointed on the LOH's tail. It would take about 1 second to start shooting in such circumstances.
Here is a web site from those night hawk guys that I worked with that night:
http://www.gruntonline.com/US_Forces...us_helos11.htm
The 2.75" rockets were the money weapon, longer range, lots of punch. We would engage in diving fire at an altitude of about 1200 to 1800 feet AGL, usually starting to shoot at about 2 Km, and break away at about 1 Km. The turret was used to cover the break as we turned away (and as our wingman started putting fire on the target).
At night, the rockets would make an enormous ball of flame on launch that would last about 1 second and of course follow the rockets downrange. The turret would make a continuous ball of flame about 5 feet in diameter, a weird yellow-green color. Believe it or not, we would shut our eyes momentarily when shooting to preserve what night vision we had! After the rockets were gone (easily told by the sound) we would open back up again to see the effect. When the turret was fired, the back seater would duck below the glare shield to avoid direct view of the flame. None of this avoidance worked very well, after a few runs, we would have to regain our night adaptation.
The flares were very effective, a Huey would drop them above us, timing them so that we almost always had one or two illuminating the scene. They were very effective, each one lighting a circle about 1/2 mile in diameter, so a good Huey crew could keep the whole mission in almost-daylight. It was a miracle that no flare chutes fell into rotors, but that was not our biggest fear by a long shot (pun intended).
The enemy's fire was easily seen as his tracers arced upward and his muzzle flashes winked along the ground. The biggest green tracers were 12.7mm, an awsome weapon for us to face. I had to engage a 50 cal pit once at night on a Night Hawk mission. The Night Hawk was a Huey with a starlight scope and a ring of C-130 landing lights that were able to be focused into a spot on the ground below. We all taped our lights out, with the upper rotating beacon allowed to glow upward only. This kept us invisible to those below until we shot. The Huey was at about 800 feet and about a mile ahead, I was in a position just above his altitude to see the red dot of his anti-collision light. All I had to do was just rock forward and be in a gun run to the point just below him. At the right time, the Huey would flip the big light on, and we would engage the bad guys below. On one mission, the target was a 50 cal, and his tracers passed both sides of my windows for the whole dive, as I walked 20mm around the base of the lights for the 20 seconds of the dive (felt like a decade) as we literally were jousting each other. The 20mm HEI explosions were winking small circles of light around his muzzle flashes, and I am sure he was guiding on my muzzle flashes as well. I could not break, he had us too well sighted, and if I turned, the 3 foot wide Cobra would present too much area to escape unhit. I broke at about 500 feet, and when I did, there was no fire from that pit. I am sure their lack of response was not voluntary.
The turret was also used for immediate fire, as we covered the LOH in a recon mission. We would fly a circle around him at about 800 feet for the low snake and 1200 feet for the wingman. The low snake could put immediate gun fire around the LOH by keeping the turret continuously pointed on the LOH's tail. It would take about 1 second to start shooting in such circumstances.
Here is a web site from those night hawk guys that I worked with that night:
http://www.gruntonline.com/US_Forces...us_helos11.htm
Last edited by NickLappos; 14th Sep 2006 at 20:49.
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Originally Posted by Nick Lappos
I could not break, he had us too well sighted, and if I turned, the 3 foot wide Cobra would present too much area to escape unhit.
Mart
"Just a pilot"
Mr Lappos is being reticent for a gun driver. The “alpha” personality that allows one to go toe-to-toe with a 12.7 emplacement- especially at night- is usually much more forthcoming in explaining to anybody handy, all and sundry, the challenges, skill and courage required to do that job. (I do admire the intellectual discipline and detachment that it takes to do that, day after day.)
I flew the flare ship for a Snake company, and did other and various missions in the dark of South Viet Nam. I shot –one- approach to a secure LZ by flare, and I hated it. Flares obscure almost as much as they illuminate. Add the powerful physiological illusion that the source of all that light’s the sun (multiple flares seem to minimize this) and you’re set for spatial disorientation, big-time, not to mention losing your eye’s dark adaptation. I’ve experienced my most powerful and durable vertigo episodes flying across a flare to drop the next in the series. I think that the normally demanding and dangerous job the Guns did was much, much harder at night, and that's probably why nights accounted for almost all of our fatal accidents.
We tried the Starlight scope, but the guy on the ‘scope usually ended up violently ill in a few minutes. Gyro-stabilized binoculars did the same thing. The preferred SOP ended being NOE, down in the trees or paddies, with the guns following, ready to pounce. A “high speed” (for a Slick) NOE entrance to the area of interest suppressed the noise somewhat. The mode was a very low level transition from a nearby stage field, or go out high with a high rate and dark descent to NOE, and then power up the “bug-light” and look around. I never took serious fire on the illuminated side of the aircraft, so maybe that big ol’ Firefly light did dazzle the bad guys- I was told it would.
"Head Turner"- We Yanks aren't "Gun-ho". We appreciate skill, fine tools, and the benefits they bring when used wisely- as they were in 1776.
I flew the flare ship for a Snake company, and did other and various missions in the dark of South Viet Nam. I shot –one- approach to a secure LZ by flare, and I hated it. Flares obscure almost as much as they illuminate. Add the powerful physiological illusion that the source of all that light’s the sun (multiple flares seem to minimize this) and you’re set for spatial disorientation, big-time, not to mention losing your eye’s dark adaptation. I’ve experienced my most powerful and durable vertigo episodes flying across a flare to drop the next in the series. I think that the normally demanding and dangerous job the Guns did was much, much harder at night, and that's probably why nights accounted for almost all of our fatal accidents.
We tried the Starlight scope, but the guy on the ‘scope usually ended up violently ill in a few minutes. Gyro-stabilized binoculars did the same thing. The preferred SOP ended being NOE, down in the trees or paddies, with the guns following, ready to pounce. A “high speed” (for a Slick) NOE entrance to the area of interest suppressed the noise somewhat. The mode was a very low level transition from a nearby stage field, or go out high with a high rate and dark descent to NOE, and then power up the “bug-light” and look around. I never took serious fire on the illuminated side of the aircraft, so maybe that big ol’ Firefly light did dazzle the bad guys- I was told it would.
"Head Turner"- We Yanks aren't "Gun-ho". We appreciate skill, fine tools, and the benefits they bring when used wisely- as they were in 1776.
Last edited by Devil 49; 16th Sep 2006 at 13:16. Reason: clarify
Devil...
It has been a long time since Nick could sit in a Cobra but for different reasons than alluded to.
When the gunnys went up against .51 caliber machine guns.....they earned their pay many times over. Being a devout pacifist I always tried to stay as far away them as possible with the exception of one occasion when I discovered the AK fire was merely bait for a Doofus and when swallowed....the big brothers took up for the small caliber guys. Nine hits from the .51's that joined in convinced me to stick to haulling underslung loads.
To be in the Cobra and flying down the line of tracers as Nick describes....chills my heart to think about it! The ramifications of the Bad Guys having a good day are not a thing I wish to think about.
I flew Chinooks and they have some very hard thick metal in them in places....and none of it even slowed a .51 hit down. I had a glancing hit from one in the cockpit and can attest to the fact it all happens very quickly. A big "BANG", a flash, and your pulse rate gets right up there with the Nr.
It was not until I saw some photographs of my aircraft that I realized the left brake pedal departed along with the chin bubble....leaving my foot behind in one piece although stuffed back under my seat.
No....I take my hat off to guys like Nick who got out there and exchanged courtesys with the Gomers oft times while at a real disadvantage. Heavens knows...I am here because of how good some of them were.
However, if pushed, Nick will probably admit Adrenalin is an amazing thing....brown, semi-liquid, collects in your un-tied boots, and reeks of poo!
It has been a long time since Nick could sit in a Cobra but for different reasons than alluded to.
When the gunnys went up against .51 caliber machine guns.....they earned their pay many times over. Being a devout pacifist I always tried to stay as far away them as possible with the exception of one occasion when I discovered the AK fire was merely bait for a Doofus and when swallowed....the big brothers took up for the small caliber guys. Nine hits from the .51's that joined in convinced me to stick to haulling underslung loads.
To be in the Cobra and flying down the line of tracers as Nick describes....chills my heart to think about it! The ramifications of the Bad Guys having a good day are not a thing I wish to think about.
I flew Chinooks and they have some very hard thick metal in them in places....and none of it even slowed a .51 hit down. I had a glancing hit from one in the cockpit and can attest to the fact it all happens very quickly. A big "BANG", a flash, and your pulse rate gets right up there with the Nr.
It was not until I saw some photographs of my aircraft that I realized the left brake pedal departed along with the chin bubble....leaving my foot behind in one piece although stuffed back under my seat.
No....I take my hat off to guys like Nick who got out there and exchanged courtesys with the Gomers oft times while at a real disadvantage. Heavens knows...I am here because of how good some of them were.
However, if pushed, Nick will probably admit Adrenalin is an amazing thing....brown, semi-liquid, collects in your un-tied boots, and reeks of poo!
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Dont let anyone think that war story was part of a PLANNED event! The target was illuminated and I just started shooting. As I saw the tracers, I realized what a mess I was in. Do not mistake foolishness for bravery, I was one limp noodle at the end of that run!
"Just a pilot"
Nick, you're too modest- Bravery isn't the absence of fear. Wouldn't a load of "nails" have been nice, though?
I don't remember ever asking anybody, so I'll ask now- What did you think of working under parachute flares, knowing there were expended flares drifting around in the dark? When I worked an areas previously illuminated by starshells, those little parachutes zipping by scared me. The flare chutes I was dropping were much bigger, we used them as ceiling liners in our hooch.
Somebody mentioned Puff/Spooky earlier, and PsyOps speakers. I never saw Puff working anywhere near PsyOps, but I'd see those "death ray" tracer streams all the time. Puff seemed to work pretty well, a testament to the minigun. I wasn't real impressed with the PsyOps speakers or their effect. I flew a couple speaker flights, and I never saw crowds of repentent bad guys streaming out of the U Minh. However, I did see guys chuck AK47s for Chu Hoi pamplets in the middle of a firefight...
I don't remember ever asking anybody, so I'll ask now- What did you think of working under parachute flares, knowing there were expended flares drifting around in the dark? When I worked an areas previously illuminated by starshells, those little parachutes zipping by scared me. The flare chutes I was dropping were much bigger, we used them as ceiling liners in our hooch.
Somebody mentioned Puff/Spooky earlier, and PsyOps speakers. I never saw Puff working anywhere near PsyOps, but I'd see those "death ray" tracer streams all the time. Puff seemed to work pretty well, a testament to the minigun. I wasn't real impressed with the PsyOps speakers or their effect. I flew a couple speaker flights, and I never saw crowds of repentent bad guys streaming out of the U Minh. However, I did see guys chuck AK47s for Chu Hoi pamplets in the middle of a firefight...
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Originally Posted by NickLappos
A few birds had the XM-35 20mm gun on the left inboard station
The other chin turret weapon trialled on the AH-1G was the XM120, a single-barreled 30mm which offered improved performance against armor (albeit with a relatively low cyclic rate, esp. compared to the 20mm M197):
Originally Posted by hotzenplotz
What kind of helicopter is this?
Originally Posted by hotzenplotz
As we have the Cobra Experts here, do you know why the snake on the picture has no landing gear?
Re: Dillan, in addition to their range of miniguns, the company also produces a rather fine calendar…
And as for the DAP, it’s about to get a whole bunch more 'Direct' through the Mike upgrade, which will include the CAAS avionics system (resulting in a common glass cockpit layout with the MELB and MH-47G), enhanced FLIR, an LPI radar, FBW, wide-chord M/R blades, a weight reduction program (composite tail cone, vertical pylon and intermediate g/box housing) and a substantial (35%) increase in installed power. Plus a bunch of non-public-realm toys…
I/C
Last edited by Ian Corrigible; 16th Sep 2006 at 23:30.
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Rudestuff:
The Communist countries produced a very effective .51 Caliber machine gun. The military told us that they could then use our .50 Cal ammunition, but we couldn't use their .51 Cal ammo.
I think they just wanted to say that "Mine is bigger than yours".
Chas A
The Communist countries produced a very effective .51 Caliber machine gun. The military told us that they could then use our .50 Cal ammunition, but we couldn't use their .51 Cal ammo.
I think they just wanted to say that "Mine is bigger than yours".
Chas A
Gunship? This Here's a Gunship!
Now this is a real Gunship!
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DAP
Nick,ALL..
The MH-60L aka DAP(Deep Attack Penatrator??) from 1-160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, Airborne (SOAR), " Nightstalkers" Is highly armed with one 19 rocket pod 1 M299 Hellfire launcher with 4 Hellfires, 2 x 134 mini guns, 1 x M130 30mm chain gun (same as the Apache, but fixed) and stingers as you see, usually those are 19 Shot rocket pods with 2 x M130 30mm and 2 x M134 7.62 mini guns.
NSDQ
Six Guns
The MH-60L aka DAP(Deep Attack Penatrator??) from 1-160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, Airborne (SOAR), " Nightstalkers" Is highly armed with one 19 rocket pod 1 M299 Hellfire launcher with 4 Hellfires, 2 x 134 mini guns, 1 x M130 30mm chain gun (same as the Apache, but fixed) and stingers as you see, usually those are 19 Shot rocket pods with 2 x M130 30mm and 2 x M134 7.62 mini guns.
NSDQ
Six Guns
SirVivr: The commies use 12.7mm ammo in guns such as the DshK. Which equates to .50cal - were they to use inches.
The picture on post #19 page 1 is clearly an AH6 - how anyone could confuse the egg shape and T-tail with a DAP is beyond me!
The picture on post #19 page 1 is clearly an AH6 - how anyone could confuse the egg shape and T-tail with a DAP is beyond me!
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Venture Into Deadly Toys
Rudestuff:
I may have had a brainfa6t, but during my tours in SEA, we were told to watch out for the 51. Cal-12.7MM guns. I cannot scan in the pictures of the 51's we captured in Cambodia. Stuck? in Trinidad.
They also had 23 MM, but not yet the ZSU 23MM Z4. That was radrar and optic controlled. We all would have died. They did have twin barrelled 23 MM that caused a lot of damage to us.
37MM and 57 MM and higher were bracketed about 1000 ft above the Max effective range of the 51 Cal.
We found this out the hard way.
Nails, or Flecehttes, were an interesting side weapon for some missions. Elevan hundred darts in each warhead. Fired in pairs. 2,200 tiny darts heading to the enemy. After the rocket burnout, the "nails" burst. Now you have to consider the slant range.
I usualy carried WP in the inboard pod to mark the target.
During the Laos Operation, I carried Nails outbaord, to sweep the infantry off the Tanks. HEAT, right inboard to crack the tanks.
HEAT, 7 lbs, works on medium amored vehiles. A pair of 17.s will usually kill a PT-76. A T-55 may take more.
Well. that is my war story.
NEXT?
Chas A
inboard, to crack said tanks.
I may have had a brainfa6t, but during my tours in SEA, we were told to watch out for the 51. Cal-12.7MM guns. I cannot scan in the pictures of the 51's we captured in Cambodia. Stuck? in Trinidad.
They also had 23 MM, but not yet the ZSU 23MM Z4. That was radrar and optic controlled. We all would have died. They did have twin barrelled 23 MM that caused a lot of damage to us.
37MM and 57 MM and higher were bracketed about 1000 ft above the Max effective range of the 51 Cal.
We found this out the hard way.
Nails, or Flecehttes, were an interesting side weapon for some missions. Elevan hundred darts in each warhead. Fired in pairs. 2,200 tiny darts heading to the enemy. After the rocket burnout, the "nails" burst. Now you have to consider the slant range.
I usualy carried WP in the inboard pod to mark the target.
During the Laos Operation, I carried Nails outbaord, to sweep the infantry off the Tanks. HEAT, right inboard to crack the tanks.
HEAT, 7 lbs, works on medium amored vehiles. A pair of 17.s will usually kill a PT-76. A T-55 may take more.
Well. that is my war story.
NEXT?
Chas A
inboard, to crack said tanks.
Actually the aircraft in the picture in post #18 is just a regular MD500E outfitted with a pair of M134 miniguns - its a demonstration aircraft used occasionally by Dillon Aero (you can see it in one of the videos on their site).
The M/AH-6 is a specialist version of the 500D operated exclusively by the 160th SOAR.
The M/AH-6 is a specialist version of the 500D operated exclusively by the 160th SOAR.
