Crash-weary ex-pilot looking to train again in London?
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Jeezus crispies, what has poor Adam said or done for all of you piston drivers to get your panties all in a twist like that? I know, I know, you guys have all of 600 hours (or thereabouts) in an R22 or a Schweizer 300 and -since it's the only helicopter you know- feel the need to defend them like they're the greatest engineering triumph since the moon landing. Here's a newsflash: they are not. They are entry level models and -while eminently capable in their own right- are neither as capable or as safe as the Hughes 500 or almost any other turbine helicopter.
Not as safe, you say? The insolence, the arrogance the... the... (froths at the mouth)... audacity! Well, engine reliability aside, would you rather have a hard landing in a 500 or in an R22? As anybody who has flown both can tell you, it's the 500. Not that it should be a surprise that a helicopter that is twice as expensive is more solidly built. Sjeez...
Not as safe, you say? The insolence, the arrogance the... the... (froths at the mouth)... audacity! Well, engine reliability aside, would you rather have a hard landing in a 500 or in an R22? As anybody who has flown both can tell you, it's the 500. Not that it should be a surprise that a helicopter that is twice as expensive is more solidly built. Sjeez...
Adam
You will be lucky to training abinitio in a 520N, there are only 3 in the country
G-NEEN at Fast helicopters that is up for sale
G-SIVN at Brian Lyell in Scotland
G-SMAC that I use to do conversions on to, the machine is in London and owned by a friend.
While the 500 is probably one of the best and most fun helicopters to fly I would not recommend it to learn on. Would you let a 17 year old learn to drive in a Mini Metro or a Ferrari ? Learn in a 300 then progress on to a 500, that way you will be a better pilot and have a load more money in the bank.
Drop me a PM if yoyu want more info and I will give you my mobile no
Cheers
You will be lucky to training abinitio in a 520N, there are only 3 in the country
G-NEEN at Fast helicopters that is up for sale
G-SIVN at Brian Lyell in Scotland
G-SMAC that I use to do conversions on to, the machine is in London and owned by a friend.
While the 500 is probably one of the best and most fun helicopters to fly I would not recommend it to learn on. Would you let a 17 year old learn to drive in a Mini Metro or a Ferrari ? Learn in a 300 then progress on to a 500, that way you will be a better pilot and have a load more money in the bank.
Drop me a PM if yoyu want more info and I will give you my mobile no
Cheers
Adam,
Going back to your original question, Biggin Hill Helicopters will also do ab-initio training in an H500.
However, I think that it will be in a D or an E, not a 520N. Your best bet is to call them and ask!
HTH,
B73
Going back to your original question, Biggin Hill Helicopters will also do ab-initio training in an H500.
However, I think that it will be in a D or an E, not a 520N. Your best bet is to call them and ask!
HTH,
B73
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Adam
Asuming you're still following this thread and haven't got bored yet, I'll try to get back to answering your original question...
I am familiar with both schools and both have a good reputation, however I have considerable first hand experience of HeliAir and can thoroughly recommend them.
I am sure many people will disagree with me but, IMHO, whilst the 500 is a beautiful machine to fly, it's noisy and very uncomfortable for your passengers (assuming you wil be taking friends & family out) and as a low-hour PPL, not the easiest of machines to auto, should the engine quit.
As has been suggested by other people on this thread, have a go in an R44, it's a completely different beast to the R22. Faster than a 206 and more comfortable than a 500, not to mention considerably cheaper than both (aprox £250 +vat per hour cheaper!). As an extra bonus the R44, as far as I am aware, also has one of the best safety records too.
Ultimately it's your life, your money & your choice, but I hope this helps
Asuming you're still following this thread and haven't got bored yet, I'll try to get back to answering your original question...
I am familiar with both schools and both have a good reputation, however I have considerable first hand experience of HeliAir and can thoroughly recommend them.
I am sure many people will disagree with me but, IMHO, whilst the 500 is a beautiful machine to fly, it's noisy and very uncomfortable for your passengers (assuming you wil be taking friends & family out) and as a low-hour PPL, not the easiest of machines to auto, should the engine quit.
As has been suggested by other people on this thread, have a go in an R44, it's a completely different beast to the R22. Faster than a 206 and more comfortable than a 500, not to mention considerably cheaper than both (aprox £250 +vat per hour cheaper!). As an extra bonus the R44, as far as I am aware, also has one of the best safety records too.
Ultimately it's your life, your money & your choice, but I hope this helps
I know, I know, you guys have all of 600 hours (or thereabouts) in an R22 or a Schweizer 300 and -since it's the only helicopter you know- feel the need to defend them like they're the greatest engineering triumph since the moon landing. Here's a newsflash: they are not. They are entry level models and -while eminently capable in their own right- are neither as capable or as safe as the Hughes 500 or almost any other turbine helicopter.
FYI I personally am speaking from several thousand hours in R22's, R44's, B47's, H300's and several thousand more in 206's, 350's, 500's, 120's, 117's, 412's, 365's and a few more, as well as being a licensed engineer for 15+ years.
Adam, take Hughes500's advice and learn on the 300 first. The new CBi is becoming a popular training aircraft and quite a few former R22 operators are now using it. The 500 is a lot of fun to fly but you are not gaining anything by learning on it first.
As Steve76 said, I think you need to get over your initial fears before you worry too much about types. Go for a fly for a few hours and do some auto's with the instructor, and see how you feel about it afterwards.
Good luck.
BM
As Steve76 said, I think you need to get over your initial fears before you worry too much about types. Go for a fly for a few hours and do some auto's with the instructor, and see how you feel about it afterwards.
Good luck.
BM
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I am learning to fly the R22 at FAST in Shoreham. Also have PPL(A). FAST seem to me to be a very professional establishment, so I would recommend them. Bloody expensive though!
Hi there.
New to this forum, but I've read every posting in one long sit-through
Short backstory. I'm a Swede living in London. Used to have a Swedish PPL (A) in Sweden (that I'm renewing as we speak to a JAR) and started training on choppers. Did 23 hours of training and solo flying on Hughes 269's between 1994 and 1995 until the following story kind of put me off a bit. Bare with me:
One late autumn day in 1995 my instructor calls me up and ask me if I want to fly an old 269 to its operator across the pond free of charge. It's about a 45min ride and of course I jump at this. We pre-flight and take-off, chit chat and whatnot. Haven't flown that prticular ship before, and it feels less 'firm' and responsive than the ones I'm used to.
Anyway, the route takes us over the archipelago in the Stockholm area and I'm doing my best at flying a straight line. Instructor says I should try to keep within autorotational distance of the all the litle islets we pass, in case something would go wrong. I think he is being overly cautious, but I do as he suggests. So we start to zig-zag between all the little islets.
Obviously, the second after we've passed out over a stretch of open water after just having left a small island, the engine starts to sound really strange. We look at eachother and I can see my instructors hands coming up from their restful position on his laps and starting to grab the cyclic.. BANG! Motor quits violently (seized up - as we later got to know - due to valve lodging into cylinder), aircraft yaws heavily to the right. We're at 1500ft and my instructor yells to me that he's got control and that I should call a mayday on the radio. I'm sh***ing myself and am probably calling a mayday on every radio frequency there is but the right one. He's managed to turn the aircraft around towards the little island. We narrowly miss a power line (I recall screaming "Do you see it? Do you see the line??!!" to which he responds "got it!"). We settle in a horse field - hard, but alive.
I remember just sitting there for the longest period of time in complete silence. Finally the horses start to come up to the heli and throw curious glances at the strange arrivals. We finally start to make our way to the nearest house on shaky legs.
Would I have managed if I've been on my own? Who knows - I had done lots of autorotation training, but I doubt I'd have gotten all of it right in such a short time. But it's impossible to tell. All I can say is that I am very grateful that he was with me that particular day.
Anyway, after this I took one more helicopter lesson and then quit. I was afraid, I was spooked. I was also broke and thought that the only way to continue was on turbines. And I simply couldn't afford that at the time.
Fast forward to 11 years later. Today I can afford it (just barely). And I've always had a love for flying helis - it was so much more joyful to me compared to fixed wing, and I've missed it. So, I've decided to take it up again. But my credo still stands - no piston powered helis. They're just not built for flying, as far as I'm concerned. And all you get today is heli schools training on the one machine that has to be the worst trainer ever - the R22. No leeway there, if you get into trouble.
To make a long story short (are you still awake?): Since I'm spending the money, I want to train on my fav turbine - the Hughes/MD 500 or the 520N. Always loved them and from what I've heard, they're a dream to fly. That leaves me with two training options in the London area (as far as I know) - Fast Helicopters in Brighton and HeliAir at Denham. And now finally to my questions:
Has anybody got any info about these schools and first hand experience? Has anybody flown the 520N out of Fast?
Also, is there anyway I could somehow use the 23 hrs I logged over 11 years ago for my new PPL (H), or are they just 'lost', so to speak?
Thanks for listening.
New to this forum, but I've read every posting in one long sit-through
Short backstory. I'm a Swede living in London. Used to have a Swedish PPL (A) in Sweden (that I'm renewing as we speak to a JAR) and started training on choppers. Did 23 hours of training and solo flying on Hughes 269's between 1994 and 1995 until the following story kind of put me off a bit. Bare with me:
One late autumn day in 1995 my instructor calls me up and ask me if I want to fly an old 269 to its operator across the pond free of charge. It's about a 45min ride and of course I jump at this. We pre-flight and take-off, chit chat and whatnot. Haven't flown that prticular ship before, and it feels less 'firm' and responsive than the ones I'm used to.
Anyway, the route takes us over the archipelago in the Stockholm area and I'm doing my best at flying a straight line. Instructor says I should try to keep within autorotational distance of the all the litle islets we pass, in case something would go wrong. I think he is being overly cautious, but I do as he suggests. So we start to zig-zag between all the little islets.
Obviously, the second after we've passed out over a stretch of open water after just having left a small island, the engine starts to sound really strange. We look at eachother and I can see my instructors hands coming up from their restful position on his laps and starting to grab the cyclic.. BANG! Motor quits violently (seized up - as we later got to know - due to valve lodging into cylinder), aircraft yaws heavily to the right. We're at 1500ft and my instructor yells to me that he's got control and that I should call a mayday on the radio. I'm sh***ing myself and am probably calling a mayday on every radio frequency there is but the right one. He's managed to turn the aircraft around towards the little island. We narrowly miss a power line (I recall screaming "Do you see it? Do you see the line??!!" to which he responds "got it!"). We settle in a horse field - hard, but alive.
I remember just sitting there for the longest period of time in complete silence. Finally the horses start to come up to the heli and throw curious glances at the strange arrivals. We finally start to make our way to the nearest house on shaky legs.
Would I have managed if I've been on my own? Who knows - I had done lots of autorotation training, but I doubt I'd have gotten all of it right in such a short time. But it's impossible to tell. All I can say is that I am very grateful that he was with me that particular day.
Anyway, after this I took one more helicopter lesson and then quit. I was afraid, I was spooked. I was also broke and thought that the only way to continue was on turbines. And I simply couldn't afford that at the time.
Fast forward to 11 years later. Today I can afford it (just barely). And I've always had a love for flying helis - it was so much more joyful to me compared to fixed wing, and I've missed it. So, I've decided to take it up again. But my credo still stands - no piston powered helis. They're just not built for flying, as far as I'm concerned. And all you get today is heli schools training on the one machine that has to be the worst trainer ever - the R22. No leeway there, if you get into trouble.
To make a long story short (are you still awake?): Since I'm spending the money, I want to train on my fav turbine - the Hughes/MD 500 or the 520N. Always loved them and from what I've heard, they're a dream to fly. That leaves me with two training options in the London area (as far as I know) - Fast Helicopters in Brighton and HeliAir at Denham. And now finally to my questions:
Has anybody got any info about these schools and first hand experience? Has anybody flown the 520N out of Fast?
Also, is there anyway I could somehow use the 23 hrs I logged over 11 years ago for my new PPL (H), or are they just 'lost', so to speak?
Thanks for listening.
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by Revolutionary
Well, engine reliability aside, would you rather have a hard landing in a 500 or in an R22?
Personally I think the best aircraft on which to train are the ones designed for training.
Cheers
Whirls
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Sure Whirls, we all make do with what we have. And -as has been pointed out by several people- the Hughes 500 is probably not the best choice for initial training. I learned to fly in an R22 and it suits that purpose well as far as I'm concerned.
To put your mind at ease: I have had occasion to test the 'harmonica' concept of the R22's seats and I can report to you that it works just fine so long as you put your umbrella or curling iron under your passengers' seat
To put your mind at ease: I have had occasion to test the 'harmonica' concept of the R22's seats and I can report to you that it works just fine so long as you put your umbrella or curling iron under your passengers' seat
027PMR The 500 is an easy machine to auto in, in fact is biggest problem is containg nr. From cruising speed you have an enormous range once you get the lever down. As for cost a 500 is about £ 500 an hour plus vat to train in, where can you get lessons in an R44 for £ 250 an hour, r22 maybe ?
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Hughes
My apologies, I got my figures mixed up
I should have said about £150 cheaper per hour, based on £365 R44 v £520 H500 +vat of course!
As for autos, do you not think that as a low hour pilot an R44 is easier to auto than a 500? Maybe it's just an experience thing, something which you clearly have in a 500
My apologies, I got my figures mixed up
I should have said about £150 cheaper per hour, based on £365 R44 v £520 H500 +vat of course!
As for autos, do you not think that as a low hour pilot an R44 is easier to auto than a 500? Maybe it's just an experience thing, something which you clearly have in a 500
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Adam.
If you really want to have a go at the 500, just do it. After you gain your PPL, try to fly at least once every two weeks to keep in flying shape and occasionally bring an instructor to brush up on your emergency drills.
About piston engine reliability, there was an article in Rotor & Wing magazine some time ago comparing piston and turbines.
Please have a look:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...303turbine.htm
If you really want to have a go at the 500, just do it. After you gain your PPL, try to fly at least once every two weeks to keep in flying shape and occasionally bring an instructor to brush up on your emergency drills.
About piston engine reliability, there was an article in Rotor & Wing magazine some time ago comparing piston and turbines.
Please have a look:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...303turbine.htm
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Thanks everyone. I've taken it all in and might have a couple of test rides in the R44 and the 300CB to feel what seems best and if I'm overcome with fear..
. It's a lot of money to blow on turbine tuition and I'm not likely to get many credits for my 23 hours logged eons ago. Although, you do save a turbine transition at the end of your PPL piston tuition....
I did like the way the 300 flew - that wasn't the problem - it was just the mechanics of it that kind of put me back a bit (obviously moreso after the accident...). Belts to drive the main shaft? And why wasn't there a single 300 where you could engage the main rotor clutch with the switch the way it was supposed to work? Instead you had to sit there for ages flicking it on and off to get the rotor rpm up in increments. My ships didn't even have governors and you had to watch the RPM like a hawk. In fact, they even tried to blame the engine failure on us for over revving, although it was clearly a mechanical problem, so it didn't stick. Heating was either roasting you or iglooing you. The dual fuel tanks - can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something illogical (oh, I think you could only check the level with the stick on one side, or something..). But I've heard the CB version is supposed to be very easy with its fuel injected engine, so maybe this is all a thing of the past.
Everyone raves about how the R44 flies, so I might give that one a try. It's just that cyclic thing that I really disliked from the R22...
Nobody seems to favour Enstroms, for some reason. Why is that?
Anybody train on the Enstrom 480 Turbine and the Schweizer 330 turbine in Britain? Would they be an alternative?
. It's a lot of money to blow on turbine tuition and I'm not likely to get many credits for my 23 hours logged eons ago. Although, you do save a turbine transition at the end of your PPL piston tuition.... I did like the way the 300 flew - that wasn't the problem - it was just the mechanics of it that kind of put me back a bit (obviously moreso after the accident...). Belts to drive the main shaft? And why wasn't there a single 300 where you could engage the main rotor clutch with the switch the way it was supposed to work? Instead you had to sit there for ages flicking it on and off to get the rotor rpm up in increments. My ships didn't even have governors and you had to watch the RPM like a hawk. In fact, they even tried to blame the engine failure on us for over revving, although it was clearly a mechanical problem, so it didn't stick. Heating was either roasting you or iglooing you. The dual fuel tanks - can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something illogical (oh, I think you could only check the level with the stick on one side, or something..). But I've heard the CB version is supposed to be very easy with its fuel injected engine, so maybe this is all a thing of the past.
Everyone raves about how the R44 flies, so I might give that one a try. It's just that cyclic thing that I really disliked from the R22...
Nobody seems to favour Enstroms, for some reason. Why is that?
Anybody train on the Enstrom 480 Turbine and the Schweizer 330 turbine in Britain? Would they be an alternative?
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 5th Sep 2006 at 22:39.
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Adam.
If you really want to have a go at the 500, just do it. After you gain your PPL, try to fly at least once every two weeks to keep in flying shape and occasionally bring an instructor to brush up on your emergency drills.
About piston engine reliability, there was an article in Rotor & Wing magazine some time ago comparing piston and turbines.
Please have a look:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...303turbine.htm
If you really want to have a go at the 500, just do it. After you gain your PPL, try to fly at least once every two weeks to keep in flying shape and occasionally bring an instructor to brush up on your emergency drills.
About piston engine reliability, there was an article in Rotor & Wing magazine some time ago comparing piston and turbines.
Please have a look:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/...303turbine.htm
Hovering AND talking
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Adam, just be careful. It sounds like you flew the 300C which is fuel-injected. The 300CB has carb-heat; it is probably the CBi that you want.
I don't think the 480 or 330 are used as trainers here.
Also consider what you want to do with the licence oce you have it. If you learn on an uncommon type, then you could be limiting yourself to one or two machines in the whole country.
Cheers
Whirls
I don't think the 480 or 330 are used as trainers here.
Also consider what you want to do with the licence oce you have it. If you learn on an uncommon type, then you could be limiting yourself to one or two machines in the whole country.
Cheers
Whirls
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Helicopter Hire.
In Oz, if I had a ppl and wanted to hire a machine to go away for the w/e, fishing, camping, that sort of thing, I would really struggle.
Flying schools have the most available helos, but are these are always busy with students. The school would put the hourly rate up to cover their loses over the w/e. Is this similar in other parts of the world?
I know that F/W is not a problem, b/c there are always spare machines sitting around at aero clubs and schools, but not R/W. Also after paying for the licence there's not enough $$$'s left over to join a syndicate and buy a '44, etc.
Any thoughts, even from Oz.
Flying schools have the most available helos, but are these are always busy with students. The school would put the hourly rate up to cover their loses over the w/e. Is this similar in other parts of the world?
I know that F/W is not a problem, b/c there are always spare machines sitting around at aero clubs and schools, but not R/W. Also after paying for the licence there's not enough $$$'s left over to join a syndicate and buy a '44, etc.
Any thoughts, even from Oz.
Adam
I think you will find all piston helis have a belt drive system ! The clutch actuator on a 300 is easy - up to engage let blades turn about 5 ft then switch to hold, about 2 flicks and the needles will be superimosed, switch to engage, job done. The new cbi has an automatic system ( Star). The fuel tanks x feed on a 300, just need a dipstick that is correct for the machine, not difficult really ! Dont need a governor in a 300, in a C model set 2300 rpm at flat pitch and the correlator will hold erpm in the green up to about 24 inches of MP after that you have to open throttle a tad.
You will find the 300 a much better heli to learn in, it does what it was built to do - teach people to fly. If you do use a Robinson product use an R44 not a 22. You will learn quicker in a 300 than either R44 or R22.
It looks and sounds like the 300 you flew in was a shed !
I think you will find all piston helis have a belt drive system ! The clutch actuator on a 300 is easy - up to engage let blades turn about 5 ft then switch to hold, about 2 flicks and the needles will be superimosed, switch to engage, job done. The new cbi has an automatic system ( Star). The fuel tanks x feed on a 300, just need a dipstick that is correct for the machine, not difficult really ! Dont need a governor in a 300, in a C model set 2300 rpm at flat pitch and the correlator will hold erpm in the green up to about 24 inches of MP after that you have to open throttle a tad.
You will find the 300 a much better heli to learn in, it does what it was built to do - teach people to fly. If you do use a Robinson product use an R44 not a 22. You will learn quicker in a 300 than either R44 or R22.
It looks and sounds like the 300 you flew in was a shed !