What is a "Mountain"?
Thread Starter
What is a "Mountain"?
We all talk about "mountains", "mountainous regions", the US FAA even declare some places "Mountainous Areas".
What is the conventional wisdom about what makes a hill a mountain?
What is the conventional wisdom about what makes a hill a mountain?
The Original Whirly
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I thought it was over 1000ft, but I'm not certain. Wasn't there some film about a guy going up a hill and coming down a mountain, based on measuring the height or something similar?
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collective terrain defintions
Sasy, stop makin' mountains out of mole hills with this over emphasis on technical definitions. A mountain is any landform you can't get over with some aft cyclic. ie you actually have to go to all the trouble of loosening the friction & using some collective.
Thread Starter
This is a mountain....
View of Mt. Rainier (14410 feet MSL) near Seattle...taken from top of Mt. Adams (12,281 feet MSL)
There is a string of these dormant or not so dormant volcanoes....including Mt. Saint Helen which blew its top not so long ago. When it blew....it lost 1,300 feet of elevation.
There is a string of these dormant or not so dormant volcanoes....including Mt. Saint Helen which blew its top not so long ago. When it blew....it lost 1,300 feet of elevation.
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2006 at 00:33.
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I see that mountain range everyday i fly Sassy. Great views. I just hope Little Miss Helens stays asleep! Dont think my R22 could outrun a pyroclastic cloud!!
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Yes, I remember seeing most of a British movie about this subject. The locals wanted their hill to be designated a mountain, and were trying to influence the surveyors, while also carrying dirt to the top to make it higher. I forget the necessary height. That was in the UK (Eire? Scotland? Wales? can't remember) and I suspect it may vary in other places. In any case, the distinction only matters as a factor in local prestige. If you can't tell by a quick glance, it's a hill IMO.
I live on the US gulf coast, so anything more than 3 feet high is a hill, and mountains simply don't exist. It's a little different in the Rockies.
Speaking of movies, there was a short-lived TV series here that was supposedly set in Houston, TX, and the opening sequence always showed the city skyline with definite mountains in the background. We always laughed, and the rest of the program was ruined for us. It didn't last a full season, IIRC.
I live on the US gulf coast, so anything more than 3 feet high is a hill, and mountains simply don't exist. It's a little different in the Rockies.
Speaking of movies, there was a short-lived TV series here that was supposedly set in Houston, TX, and the opening sequence always showed the city skyline with definite mountains in the background. We always laughed, and the rest of the program was ruined for us. It didn't last a full season, IIRC.
Thread Starter
Mt. Baker....north of Seattle
The USFS provides helicopter delivered PortaLoo's so climbers do not "spoil" the view.
Mt. Baker 10,778 feet MSL
Is this a mountain? 4404 feet MSL
Mt. Baker 10,778 feet MSL
Is this a mountain? 4404 feet MSL
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2006 at 00:32.
Heliducks dictionary - "Mountain = Any object made of Terra-firma which projects above skid height while power available is less than power required to rise above said terra-firma".
Mt. Everest or an ant hill, same result!!
Mt. Everest or an ant hill, same result!!
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"Mountainous Regions" are defined with a map in the Airman's Information Manual.
see:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/...tml#jiG154JACK
see:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/...tml#jiG154JACK
According to Wiki, it all depends
In the United States, a mountain is 1,000 feet (304.4 metres) or more in height from bottom to summit. A hill is 500 (152.4 metres) to 999 (304 metres) feet. A discernible hill that is less than 500 feet high is a knoll. A series of knolls constitutes a rolling plain. A plain is generally considered flat if it has no significant prominences (e.g., "hills" less than 20 feet high, though the range of height varies for a plain to be considered flat).[citation needed]
United Kingdom
In England and Wales the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has defined "mountain" (as a mass noun) as all land over 600 metres, for the purposes of right to roam legislation. This is a close metric equivalent of 2,000 feet (609.6 m). [4] The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 does not appear to draw this distinction, and in Scotland the term "mountain" is more subjective, often being used for hills exceeding 3,000 feet (914.4 m) listed as Munros, as well as many lower hills which are distinctive or mountainous. In the United Kingdom the term "hill" is commonly used for all hills and mountains, regardless of height.
United Kingdom
In England and Wales the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has defined "mountain" (as a mass noun) as all land over 600 metres, for the purposes of right to roam legislation. This is a close metric equivalent of 2,000 feet (609.6 m). [4] The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 does not appear to draw this distinction, and in Scotland the term "mountain" is more subjective, often being used for hills exceeding 3,000 feet (914.4 m) listed as Munros, as well as many lower hills which are distinctive or mountainous. In the United Kingdom the term "hill" is commonly used for all hills and mountains, regardless of height.
Mountainous regions of Canada
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/pu...C/2-1.htm#2-12
2.12 Mountainous Regions
Designated mountainous regions are areas of defined lateral dimensions specified in the Designated Airspace Handbook, above which special rules concerning minimum IFR altitudes to ensure obstacle clearance (CAR 602.124) apply.
An aircraft, when operated in accordance with IFR within designated mountainous regions, but outside of areas for which minimum altitudes for IFR operations have been established (including minimum radar vectoring altitudes, MOCAs, transition altitudes, 100NM safe altitudes, MSAs and AMAs), shall be flown at an altitude of at least 2000 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM of the aircraft in flight when in areas 1 and 5, and at least 1500 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM when in areas 2, 3 and 4. (See Figure 2.10.)
As minimum enroute IFR altitudes have been established for designated airways and air routes, such minimum altitudes shall be applied when flying in accordance with IFR along airways or air routes within designated mountainous regions, except that aircraft should be operated at an altitude which is at least 1000 feet higher than the minimum enroute IFR altitude, when there are large variations in temperature and (or) pressure. (See RAC 8.5)
Figure 2.10 Designated Mountainous Regions in Canada
2.12 Mountainous Regions
Designated mountainous regions are areas of defined lateral dimensions specified in the Designated Airspace Handbook, above which special rules concerning minimum IFR altitudes to ensure obstacle clearance (CAR 602.124) apply.
An aircraft, when operated in accordance with IFR within designated mountainous regions, but outside of areas for which minimum altitudes for IFR operations have been established (including minimum radar vectoring altitudes, MOCAs, transition altitudes, 100NM safe altitudes, MSAs and AMAs), shall be flown at an altitude of at least 2000 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM of the aircraft in flight when in areas 1 and 5, and at least 1500 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM when in areas 2, 3 and 4. (See Figure 2.10.)
As minimum enroute IFR altitudes have been established for designated airways and air routes, such minimum altitudes shall be applied when flying in accordance with IFR along airways or air routes within designated mountainous regions, except that aircraft should be operated at an altitude which is at least 1000 feet higher than the minimum enroute IFR altitude, when there are large variations in temperature and (or) pressure. (See RAC 8.5)
Figure 2.10 Designated Mountainous Regions in Canada
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In log book terms for mountain experience, I always thought it was 5000'
I keep a track of mountain time, as some contracts call for minimum experience...
Canīt imagine anyone has much interest in your experience around 1000' mountains? There are bigger slopes in PNG runways
I keep a track of mountain time, as some contracts call for minimum experience...
Canīt imagine anyone has much interest in your experience around 1000' mountains? There are bigger slopes in PNG runways
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Ye may be mixin' yer metaphors (so to speak). You won't find too many mountains that are 5,000' top-to-bottom, but would you call a 700' hill rising out of a 6,500' MSL plain a mountain?
Certainly MSL altitude factors into what we know as "mountain flying", but I've flown over a 2000' vertical rise mountain at 2600' MSL, and I've flown 500' AGL over table-flat terrain with 6100' on the altimeter.
Certainly MSL altitude factors into what we know as "mountain flying", but I've flown over a 2000' vertical rise mountain at 2600' MSL, and I've flown 500' AGL over table-flat terrain with 6100' on the altimeter.
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Britmil definition (taken from Safety Altitude instructions) is 3000' and above.
'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'
Thats the one i've always used.
Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much.
'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'
Thats the one i've always used.
Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much.
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Flingwing.
You lost me on the mixed metaphors bit, but thatīs not hard to do ;-)
I take your point though...!
Just for consistency. I wouldnīt log a landing on a 700' hill sticking out of a 6500' plain as mountain time.
I log mountain ranges (more than an isolated hill) over 5000' as mountain time. I donīt log flying thru them or over them. Only if Iīm working the area consistently, seismic,drills,fires etc. With repetitive landings, departures or longline approaches.
Iīm not challenging anyoneīs right to call anything a mountain. Iīm just a little surprised, I thought everyone thought mountains were over 5000'.
Beatīs me where I got the idea from....
There again it could have been the forms I've had to fill out for high elevation jobs, where the insurers want to know how much time you have working above 5000' ...I thought this was what constituted a Mountain.
Iīm proven wrong, yet again!
170'
ps...sorry for the thread creep!
You lost me on the mixed metaphors bit, but thatīs not hard to do ;-)
I take your point though...!
Just for consistency. I wouldnīt log a landing on a 700' hill sticking out of a 6500' plain as mountain time.
I log mountain ranges (more than an isolated hill) over 5000' as mountain time. I donīt log flying thru them or over them. Only if Iīm working the area consistently, seismic,drills,fires etc. With repetitive landings, departures or longline approaches.
Iīm not challenging anyoneīs right to call anything a mountain. Iīm just a little surprised, I thought everyone thought mountains were over 5000'.
Beatīs me where I got the idea from....
There again it could have been the forms I've had to fill out for high elevation jobs, where the insurers want to know how much time you have working above 5000' ...I thought this was what constituted a Mountain.
Iīm proven wrong, yet again!
170'
ps...sorry for the thread creep!
Thread Starter
Ah....errr....uhhh....What?
Britmil definition (taken from Safety Altitude instructions) is 3000' and above.
'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'
Thats the one i've always used.
Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much.
'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'
Thats the one i've always used.
Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much.
State of Wyoming for example....
http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/u...vation-map.jpg
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2006 at 15:20.
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This has been a topic much on my mind lately, as I hope to be usfs/oas carded by next spring, and I'll need 200 hours of "mountain time".
The problem... no one can tell me the definition of mountain time.
People seem in agreement that here in the states, the forest service used to define mountain time as "above 5,000' density altitude" and some other references to steep terrain and high winds etc. However, I've been told by a reliable source who I've never know to be wrong, that the current contracts require 7,000' pressure altitude to count as mountain time.
On the other hand, I've seen people get carded without this time above 7,000' PA. and I've also heard that the usfs has referenced the AIM definition referenced above by Nick, which is a far cry from the restrictive definition above.
Anyone here know any more about what the USFS is defining mountain time as?
The problem... no one can tell me the definition of mountain time.
People seem in agreement that here in the states, the forest service used to define mountain time as "above 5,000' density altitude" and some other references to steep terrain and high winds etc. However, I've been told by a reliable source who I've never know to be wrong, that the current contracts require 7,000' pressure altitude to count as mountain time.
On the other hand, I've seen people get carded without this time above 7,000' PA. and I've also heard that the usfs has referenced the AIM definition referenced above by Nick, which is a far cry from the restrictive definition above.
Anyone here know any more about what the USFS is defining mountain time as?