Rotorheads and the Guild of Air Pilots
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
3 years as an Upper Freeman yet continually having my name spelt incorrectly, was a hint that it wasn't the place for the likes of me.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey don't worry about it! I've had 42 years of having my real name spelt incorrectly! 
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bravo 73,
thanks for the info, the link to the History of Livery Companies I found particularly interesting (I have quite an interest in Social History - I do try to get out more but don't always succeed).
Would be interested in the answer to Whirlybirds question,
if anyone is willing to post or PM me.
Brom
thanks for the info, the link to the History of Livery Companies I found particularly interesting (I have quite an interest in Social History - I do try to get out more but don't always succeed).
Would be interested in the answer to Whirlybirds question,
'What privileges, and why is it worth joining?...'
if anyone is willing to post or PM me.
Brom
Chief Bottle Washer
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
3 years as an Upper Freeman yet continually having my name spelt incorrectly, was a hint that it wasn't the place for the likes of me.
I'd hate to think that such a trivial matter would prevent you from contributing to our industry through such an organisation.
Senior Pilot
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And did you bother to tell them, or correct it on the member's section of the GAPAN website?
Maybe it could be blamed on the postal system (5 times?), but they seemed to receive my resignation letter without any problems well enough!
Members website! Perhaps it might have worked but to be honest it's new to me.
I'd hate to think that such a trivial matter would prevent you from contributing to our industry through such an organisation.
Yes a pity, nay a shame, and I would have loved to have seen Buzz Aldrin a few years ago and more recently Neil Armstrong, met up with friends, old, new and those I have not yet had the chance to meet.
Perhaps I should have persevered but as I said in my first sentence above, "there comes a point where you wonder if it is worth it."
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Silsoe, you've answered the question I posted earlier,
'What privileges, and why is it worth joining?...'
I'm also cutting down on subscriptions I pay for very little return, however, I'll continue to support and contribute to the industry through other channels where I do get a return for my money.
Brom.
'What privileges, and why is it worth joining?...'
I'm also cutting down on subscriptions I pay for very little return, however, I'll continue to support and contribute to the industry through other channels where I do get a return for my money.
Brom.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks SilsoeSid.
Now, could some of those who think it IS worth joining, please tell me why.
Seems I've missed meeting Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin.
If I join now, what else am I likely to get for my money...apart from a mention on these hallowed pages.
Now, could some of those who think it IS worth joining, please tell me why.
Seems I've missed meeting Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin.
If I join now, what else am I likely to get for my money...apart from a mention on these hallowed pages.
Is it "worth" it?
Sid, Whirls, et al.,
Having been in GAPAN for 30+ years, I've never found myself asking 'is it worth joining'. I believe membership of the Guild to be a privilege, and the opportunity to have some input into the decision making end of our industry is invaluable. Maybe the question should be, 'what can I contribute to GAPAN'?
Down here, we have a respected Technical Committee which has a consultative input to many, if not all, of CASA's proposed rule making initiatives. The Guild also has a well publicised training award, and a respected international set of Awards to the industry.
Many years ago I was actively involved in the Helicopter Association of Australia, and like to think that we scored a few runs for the helicopter industry in Oz. GAPAN and AOPA are better heard these days: we need all the help that we can get, as the old "Divide and Conquer" philosophy always seems to work in favour of the CAA or CASA
The louder the industry voice, and the better the presentation as a truely industry wide representation, the greater the chance of getting heard 
ps: Sid, I get all the GAPAN stuff either off the web, or by post all the way from Blighty, and always wish that I was in UK able to go to the events published. I'm cursing Tudor ever since he got that trip in the refueller VC10
Having been in GAPAN for 30+ years, I've never found myself asking 'is it worth joining'. I believe membership of the Guild to be a privilege, and the opportunity to have some input into the decision making end of our industry is invaluable. Maybe the question should be, 'what can I contribute to GAPAN'?
Down here, we have a respected Technical Committee which has a consultative input to many, if not all, of CASA's proposed rule making initiatives. The Guild also has a well publicised training award, and a respected international set of Awards to the industry.
Many years ago I was actively involved in the Helicopter Association of Australia, and like to think that we scored a few runs for the helicopter industry in Oz. GAPAN and AOPA are better heard these days: we need all the help that we can get, as the old "Divide and Conquer" philosophy always seems to work in favour of the CAA or CASA
The louder the industry voice, and the better the presentation as a truely industry wide representation, the greater the chance of getting heard ps: Sid, I get all the GAPAN stuff either off the web, or by post all the way from Blighty, and always wish that I was in UK able to go to the events published. I'm cursing Tudor ever since he got that trip in the refueller VC10
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, John; thanks for the input But that just leaves me with more questions.
Why do you consider membership to be a privilege? And since I'd have to pay to join, why isn't it reasonable to be asking what I might get out of it? And why exactly should I be asking what I can contribute to GAPAN?
I realise GAPAN is terribly respected and all that. But being a member of a respected organisation simply because it's a respected organisation doesn't interest me. I, personally, need a better reason...no criticism intended of those who don't need any other reason. So I'm still asking - are there other reasons to join?
Why do you consider membership to be a privilege? And since I'd have to pay to join, why isn't it reasonable to be asking what I might get out of it? And why exactly should I be asking what I can contribute to GAPAN?
I realise GAPAN is terribly respected and all that. But being a member of a respected organisation simply because it's a respected organisation doesn't interest me. I, personally, need a better reason...no criticism intended of those who don't need any other reason. So I'm still asking - are there other reasons to join?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it worth it?
Someone offered to propose me for the Guild 10 years ago, but I didn’t get around to it until another friend offered a few years later.
My loss – I wish I’d joined sooner.
I’ve enjoyed every single event I’ve attended, without exception, and regard being able to attend such occasions as a privilege.
The members are mainly professional pilots - a good mix of mil and commercial from every field of aviation – but PPLs are made very welcome. Great company - it's difficult to imagine a more enjoyable and interesting group of aviators from such varying backgrounds.
It's impossible to measure the value of such company in money terms because personal views will differ; I regard it as a privilege.
Old Boys?
There are some elderly members; most are not.
My tip to new members is to seize any opportunity to speak to the older members – they include pilots with vast experience in a wide variety of aviation spheres, including eg distinguished test pilots such as Duncan Simpson whose varied test flying career ranged from Vampire to Harrier, including the maiden flights of both Harrier and Hawk.
Again, I regard being able to chat to such people about experiences in their careers as a privilege.
Old Boy networking?
I know some people who have found networking very beneficial but, not being in the industry myself, I don’t know how widespread that is. I assume making contacts could be useful but, if that’s the only motive for becoming a member, I doubt if it's worth joining.
“….. though I'm sure there's much more to it than that.”
Yes, there is.
Social
Apart from the Clerk to the Guild and a few admin staff (3 incl part-timers) who work very hard, the work of the Guild is done by members who volunteer to help in some capacity.
For the reasons I’ve given, I certainly regard it as a privilege to be a member, and I remain grateful to my proposers for suggesting it.
The highest annual sub (Upper Freeman) is the equivalent of less than £3.50 per week. There's no joining fee. (The Guild is a Livery Company of the City of London, hence the ancient titles for members.)
Whirlybird
I’ve proposed several friends who are now members of the Guild and enjoy it. There are other friends I haven’t offered to propose - either because I don’t think they’d enjoy it or because I know they aren’t interested in such organisations. (Some are not ‘joiners’ - their words.) The fact I haven’t offered is no disrespect whatsoever to them; people get pleasure from different things.
In answer to your questions:
I don't know you well enough to be certain but, based on meeting you a few times and reading your posts in this forum and in other PPRuNe forums over many years, I'm 95% sure you wouldn't particularly enjoy the Guild and 100% sure you'd think you weren't getting enough out of it in return for your annual sub. IMHO it’s not worth you spending the money.
In contrast, for example, I thought Whirlygig would enjoy it. I proposed her, and she does – as do several other members of this forum, ranging from some who are relatively new in the industry to others who've been professional pilots for more years than they might wish to admit.
My loss – I wish I’d joined sooner.
I’ve enjoyed every single event I’ve attended, without exception, and regard being able to attend such occasions as a privilege.
The members are mainly professional pilots - a good mix of mil and commercial from every field of aviation – but PPLs are made very welcome. Great company - it's difficult to imagine a more enjoyable and interesting group of aviators from such varying backgrounds.
It's impossible to measure the value of such company in money terms because personal views will differ; I regard it as a privilege.
Initial thoughts were that it's a bit of an 'Old Boys Club' though I'm sure there's much more to it than that.
Old Boys?
There are some elderly members; most are not.
My tip to new members is to seize any opportunity to speak to the older members – they include pilots with vast experience in a wide variety of aviation spheres, including eg distinguished test pilots such as Duncan Simpson whose varied test flying career ranged from Vampire to Harrier, including the maiden flights of both Harrier and Hawk.
Again, I regard being able to chat to such people about experiences in their careers as a privilege.
Old Boy networking?
I know some people who have found networking very beneficial but, not being in the industry myself, I don’t know how widespread that is. I assume making contacts could be useful but, if that’s the only motive for becoming a member, I doubt if it's worth joining.
“….. though I'm sure there's much more to it than that.”
Yes, there is.
Social
- The social events (some formal, some informal) are always extremely enjoyable - good opportunities to catch up with old friends and chat to interesting new people.
- Evening and lunchtime talks - always interesting topics.
- 'Behind the scenes' visits to places of aviation interest - most of which aren't accessible to individuals.
- The Guild has active links with regulatory and licensing authorities, and all other constituted body whose activities might affect the safety and welfare of air pilots and air navigators. As an independent organisation, it has direct access to Ministers, their departments, individual MPs and the CAA. The Regional Committees perform similar functions in Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong.
- In addition, the Guild has representatives on numerous national boards, councils and committees, incl:
CAA's Civil Air Transport Consultative Committee
Flight Time Limitations - Fixed Wing and Rotary Advisory Groups
General Aviation Consultative Committee
General Aviation Safety Review Working Group
ICAO Flight Crew Licensing Panel
General Aviation Safety Committee (GASCo)
Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers
NATS - Stakeholders Committee, National Air Traffic Management Advisory Committee and Navigation and All Weather Operations Committee
UK Flight Safety Committee
UK Airprox Board.
In addition members of the Education & Training Committee represent the Guild at City and Metropolitan Universities in relation to their M.Sc courses in Aviation Management.
- Helping aspiring pilots, incl helping organising the scholarships, and with aptitude testing.
- Affiliated Armed Services Units:
No. IV (Army Co‑operation) Squadron, RAF
Army Air Corps
847 Naval Air Squadron (Royal Marines)
HMS Illustrious
No 55 (Reserve) Squadron,
RAF Aerobatic Team (Red Arrows)
7 Regiment Army Air Corps (Volunteers)
University of London Air Squadron
Headquarters London Wing Air Training Corps
Central Flying School
Apart from the Clerk to the Guild and a few admin staff (3 incl part-timers) who work very hard, the work of the Guild is done by members who volunteer to help in some capacity.
'membership has it's privileges'
- If you don't enjoy the sort of company I’ve described, aren't interested in attending aviation social events/talks/visits, nor in contributing to aviation generally via the Guild then, frankly, I don’t think it’s worth joining.
- If all or some of those things appeal then it's certainly worth becoming a member and I highly recommend it.
The highest annual sub (Upper Freeman) is the equivalent of less than £3.50 per week. There's no joining fee. (The Guild is a Livery Company of the City of London, hence the ancient titles for members.)
Whirlybird
I’ve proposed several friends who are now members of the Guild and enjoy it. There are other friends I haven’t offered to propose - either because I don’t think they’d enjoy it or because I know they aren’t interested in such organisations. (Some are not ‘joiners’ - their words.) The fact I haven’t offered is no disrespect whatsoever to them; people get pleasure from different things.
In answer to your questions:
I don't know you well enough to be certain but, based on meeting you a few times and reading your posts in this forum and in other PPRuNe forums over many years, I'm 95% sure you wouldn't particularly enjoy the Guild and 100% sure you'd think you weren't getting enough out of it in return for your annual sub. IMHO it’s not worth you spending the money.
In contrast, for example, I thought Whirlygig would enjoy it. I proposed her, and she does – as do several other members of this forum, ranging from some who are relatively new in the industry to others who've been professional pilots for more years than they might wish to admit.
IMHO, the Guild is a wonderful organisation, and I'm proud to be a member. If anyone is interested in joining, feel free to email me so that we can discuss the way forward. I'll be very busy for the next week, but will respond after that.
Tudor
Join Date: May 2007
Location: varies
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Merriam-Webster:a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor ; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office.....Probably over-egging the pudding to use the word privileged.....Honoured to be a member is more appropriate if you want to be pedantic..........All you do is join after all?..........If indeed there is proposal/secondment, it can't be too arduous as people here are willing to propose candidates based on a rumour network relationship, hardly a select group taking some of the posts into account. MT
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting first post moretorque.
"Probably over-egging the pudding to use the word privileged"
Not IMHO.
"Honoured to be a member is more appropriate"
That too.
"if you want to be pedantic"
I don't.
"All you do is join after all?"
True, provided you are proposed and seconded and the Court of the Guild approves.
"it can't be too arduous"
It's not. I don't know of the Court declining to approve a candidate, but I suspect that's because proposers/seconders exercise good judgment in deciding whom they put forward for membership. (The Guild recognises that some people who wish to join may not know any existing members so there is a procedure to help them become members.)
"as people here are willing to propose candidates based on a rumour network relationship"
I've done that a couple of times when I considered it appropriate. Having read virtually every post in this forum for the past seven years, I'm confident I know enough about the people behind the (regular) usernames to make an informed judgment about them.
"hardly a select group taking some of the posts into account."
I don't think any of us here would claim to be part of a 'select group'. However, there are many contributors to this forum for whom I have enormous respect, even though I don't know their real names, have never met them and probably never will.
FL
"Probably over-egging the pudding to use the word privileged"
Not IMHO.
"Honoured to be a member is more appropriate"
That too.
"if you want to be pedantic"
I don't.
"All you do is join after all?"
True, provided you are proposed and seconded and the Court of the Guild approves.
"it can't be too arduous"
It's not. I don't know of the Court declining to approve a candidate, but I suspect that's because proposers/seconders exercise good judgment in deciding whom they put forward for membership. (The Guild recognises that some people who wish to join may not know any existing members so there is a procedure to help them become members.)
"as people here are willing to propose candidates based on a rumour network relationship"
I've done that a couple of times when I considered it appropriate. Having read virtually every post in this forum for the past seven years, I'm confident I know enough about the people behind the (regular) usernames to make an informed judgment about them.
"hardly a select group taking some of the posts into account."
I don't think any of us here would claim to be part of a 'select group'. However, there are many contributors to this forum for whom I have enormous respect, even though I don't know their real names, have never met them and probably never will.
FL
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying Lawyer,
Many thanks for finally answering my question.
However, my curiosity is piqued. You really hardly know me, yet seemed fairly certain in your opinion as to whether I'd enjoy the Guild or not. I actually think you're right -I'd even agree approximately on the percentages - but how did you know? What was your opinion based on? If you don't want to be too specific on here, feel free to send me a pm...but only if you have time, that is; it's not that important. But I really am curious.
Many thanks for finally answering my question.
However, my curiosity is piqued. You really hardly know me, yet seemed fairly certain in your opinion as to whether I'd enjoy the Guild or not. I actually think you're right -I'd even agree approximately on the percentages - but how did you know? What was your opinion based on? If you don't want to be too specific on here, feel free to send me a pm...but only if you have time, that is; it's not that important. But I really am curious.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybird
Years of practice in my job.
(That doesn't mean I never get it wrong.)
John Eacott
Superb day flying - as a passenger
That one Guild visit alone would have made this year's sub worth paying.
In fact, several years' subs!
Tudor
Years of practice in my job.
(That doesn't mean I never get it wrong.)
John Eacott
always wish that I was in UK able to go to the events published. I'm cursing Tudor ever since he got that trip in the refueller VC10
That one Guild visit alone would have made this year's sub worth paying.
In fact, several years' subs!
Tudor
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 27th Oct 2007 at 05:04.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, wait a minute!
Belatedly, I have overcome unspeakable embarrassment to defend GAPAN
In February 97 this Ppruner (then a very fit 47 year-old) was struck down with multiple sclerosis. Within days of diagnosis I was virtually blind and walking only with he aid of 2 canes. My marriage was swiftly strained to the limit, I lost my career and all income except benefits and losing my home was looking increasingly inevitable.
Thanks to two very generous donations from the Guild's Benevolent Fund I was able to sort my mortgage arrears and buy a PC with Braille keyboard. With this latter item I was able to maintain contact with the outside world (including the global MS community) and earn income from my writing.
With greatest respect Whirls and others, maybe you could look beyond what YOU could get out of GAPAN?
If you want to consider privileges, consider the privilege of going to the bathroom unassisited or being able to choose a matching pair of socks without help. Oh heavens, you have no idea.
Cheers, bm (733, F27, B206 and 212 etc.)
In February 97 this Ppruner (then a very fit 47 year-old) was struck down with multiple sclerosis. Within days of diagnosis I was virtually blind and walking only with he aid of 2 canes. My marriage was swiftly strained to the limit, I lost my career and all income except benefits and losing my home was looking increasingly inevitable.
Thanks to two very generous donations from the Guild's Benevolent Fund I was able to sort my mortgage arrears and buy a PC with Braille keyboard. With this latter item I was able to maintain contact with the outside world (including the global MS community) and earn income from my writing.
With greatest respect Whirls and others, maybe you could look beyond what YOU could get out of GAPAN?
If you want to consider privileges, consider the privilege of going to the bathroom unassisited or being able to choose a matching pair of socks without help. Oh heavens, you have no idea.
Cheers, bm (733, F27, B206 and 212 etc.)
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 430 Likes
on
227 Posts
Whirly, I would think that a member of GAPAN would be even more respected as a writer on aviation topics.
Wish I could write
Wish I could write
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: galway ireland
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GAPAN assesment for helicopter training
GAPAN have a role in providing impartial assessments of prospective pilots. They are clearly extremely experienced dedicated people as the above testifies. Does anyone know if their assessment procedures are just valid for fixed-wing or equally for helicopters! Thanks
PS in advance if you get the GAPAN page on do you want to be a pilot it is a dead-end!
PS in advance if you get the GAPAN page on do you want to be a pilot it is a dead-end!
