Use of Mirrors in SAR?
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Use of Mirrors in SAR?
Use of Mirrors in SAR?
Are there any SAR operators in the world that use mirrors or vertical ref. for winching? I know the French do with the Lamas and Allouettes. What about heavier machines?
I’ve done some underslung loadlifting and now that I’m in the SAR environment I feel that the use of mirrors would increase the safety and speed of some SAR operations.
For existing aircraft such as the S61 it probably wouldn’t be feasible, but what about the new technology S92/AW139?
Wets would be quicker for someone trained in the use of mirrors, once the targets in view of the mirror it’s easy to keep there.
Cliffs and Decks would be safer. Nothing would have to change from the winchops patter; this would just be an additional safety feature, a visual fix on what’s going on. (I know sometimes its better not to know!
)
A swing on the line can be cancelled without a problem, a snagged cable would be seen immediately, these are all small but important problems that it takes time to convey to the pilot and then for the pilot to act on.
I’m not trying to rewrite SAR procedures, just trying to add something from the civilian world that may make a tricky job slightly easier.
Are there any SAR operators in the world that use mirrors or vertical ref. for winching? I know the French do with the Lamas and Allouettes. What about heavier machines?
I’ve done some underslung loadlifting and now that I’m in the SAR environment I feel that the use of mirrors would increase the safety and speed of some SAR operations.
For existing aircraft such as the S61 it probably wouldn’t be feasible, but what about the new technology S92/AW139?
Wets would be quicker for someone trained in the use of mirrors, once the targets in view of the mirror it’s easy to keep there.
Cliffs and Decks would be safer. Nothing would have to change from the winchops patter; this would just be an additional safety feature, a visual fix on what’s going on. (I know sometimes its better not to know!
) A swing on the line can be cancelled without a problem, a snagged cable would be seen immediately, these are all small but important problems that it takes time to convey to the pilot and then for the pilot to act on.
I’m not trying to rewrite SAR procedures, just trying to add something from the civilian world that may make a tricky job slightly easier.
If yer guy in back is directing you....and you see something in the mirror....and correct for it....would you not confuse the guy in back? He would be asking you to hold steady....perceive you moving left (for example) as you make a correction without telling him....he thinks it is drift....and starts his patter to correct that....would you then ignore him or move right ?
Mirrors have their use....but so does the guy in back.
Mirrors have their use....but so does the guy in back.
HEMS or SAR?
Seems to me more and more HEMS operators with vertref or hoisting or short hauling jobs using mirrors. Standard since a lot of years in Switzerland and Austria also during the older Al III years. The Federal Police (former known as Border Guard) in Germany today works without mirrors but have ordered the new ships EC 135 with mirrors. The french EC 145 are mirror equipped. The armies doing SAR/HEMS jobs in Europe working nearly all without mirrors. Anyway, i believe a mirror is giving additional or sometimes lifesaving informations to the pilot.
Interested in a mirror view? Have a look in the EC 135/145 mirror on a 120ft line Human External Cargo (HEC) lift! Just my view after thousends of lifts with all kinds of loads including rescue, crane or hoisting. The back guy (observer or hoist operator) is good, but i like the personal view on the things going on below me! More safety also if the Intercom fails.
Seems to me more and more HEMS operators with vertref or hoisting or short hauling jobs using mirrors. Standard since a lot of years in Switzerland and Austria also during the older Al III years. The Federal Police (former known as Border Guard) in Germany today works without mirrors but have ordered the new ships EC 135 with mirrors. The french EC 145 are mirror equipped. The armies doing SAR/HEMS jobs in Europe working nearly all without mirrors. Anyway, i believe a mirror is giving additional or sometimes lifesaving informations to the pilot.
Interested in a mirror view? Have a look in the EC 135/145 mirror on a 120ft line Human External Cargo (HEC) lift! Just my view after thousends of lifts with all kinds of loads including rescue, crane or hoisting. The back guy (observer or hoist operator) is good, but i like the personal view on the things going on below me! More safety also if the Intercom fails.
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Arm the Floats...
Could be a controversial post!
I'm with you 100% . but it's a background specific thing I think!
You might get some negative comments from the traditionally trained.
Sasless brings out a valid point, but if the system evolved as I think it would. The Winch-Op's job would evolve with it.
Can't say how or in what direction, but it stands to reason, if you can see what's going on. You've just improved the product a huge amount?
I'd love to get on a test program, but can't see it happening anytime soon where I work! Interesting post though!
Pic
Could be a controversial post!
I'm with you 100% . but it's a background specific thing I think!
You might get some negative comments from the traditionally trained.
Sasless brings out a valid point, but if the system evolved as I think it would. The Winch-Op's job would evolve with it.
Can't say how or in what direction, but it stands to reason, if you can see what's going on. You've just improved the product a huge amount?
I'd love to get on a test program, but can't see it happening anytime soon where I work! Interesting post though!
Pic
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Use of mirrors in SAR
arm the floats
The only tricky job is going to be flying with you with suggestions like that. I am interested in how you would dampen any swing that develops befoe the winchop?
Forward 40, winching out,. steady
The only tricky job is going to be flying with you with suggestions like that. I am interested in how you would dampen any swing that develops befoe the winchop?
Forward 40, winching out,. steady
Interesting
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I've been lucky enough to work with traditional winching crews and those who swear by the use of mirrors. Whilst I don't have a pilot's type view on the pros and cons, what does worry me is workload. What I mean is, if you have a 4 man crew, why not share the work. Let the winch op worry about what's going on under the aircraft, the co-pilot deals with clearances on the left and the pilot can concentrate on maintaining a hover according to the winch ops patter. Isn't this what the multi-crew concept is all about. The examples given about use of mirrors for long line HEC ops are valid for overland, good vis, small helicopter ops - there is no way I would fly with a pilot using similar mirror references over a pitching deck on a big bird like S92, S61, Sea King or similar. Likewise there is no value in mirrors at night; even with good lighting.
I have been involved in many 'cross trade' discussions like this over the years, including the arguments over the employment of AHT/HT on decks, etc. The central consideration in all these discussions is the question of who is best placed to do the job. Let the pilot fly the helicopter and the winch op deal with the hoisting and what goes on below.
Once flew with a pilot who ignored my patter during some simple wets in FIs. During the subsequent debrief over why he didn't correct to my patter he stated that "...when you have been in SAR as long as me, you can ignore the winch op if you know better...". Same guy nearly killed 4 people when he flew a wing-over type stunt with a turn down wind. The rear crew told him it would be stupid! (Sorry, not really relevant).
I have been involved in many 'cross trade' discussions like this over the years, including the arguments over the employment of AHT/HT on decks, etc. The central consideration in all these discussions is the question of who is best placed to do the job. Let the pilot fly the helicopter and the winch op deal with the hoisting and what goes on below.
Once flew with a pilot who ignored my patter during some simple wets in FIs. During the subsequent debrief over why he didn't correct to my patter he stated that "...when you have been in SAR as long as me, you can ignore the winch op if you know better...". Same guy nearly killed 4 people when he flew a wing-over type stunt with a turn down wind. The rear crew told him it would be stupid! (Sorry, not really relevant).
If mirrors can be fitted, they are an extra piece of the safety jig saw puzzle, just to increase the situational awareness of pilot.
Once had to go to a court hearing, B206 went down due to sling being attached when not supposed to be - mirror was broken and not fitted. Pilot did not see the sling was hooked up - though it was in the back with a passenger who had climbed aboard (for the last time!).
B206 took off, sling caught on an obstacle and broke. Flipped back up into rotor, taking off about a metre of the blade at the tip.
At 70ft the main rotor blade came into cabin and sliced the pilot into two!
Upper and lower body were tossed in different directions - 130 metres. A terrible accident which killed others as well.
Pilot had been used to mirror, but on this day........
Once had to go to a court hearing, B206 went down due to sling being attached when not supposed to be - mirror was broken and not fitted. Pilot did not see the sling was hooked up - though it was in the back with a passenger who had climbed aboard (for the last time!).
B206 took off, sling caught on an obstacle and broke. Flipped back up into rotor, taking off about a metre of the blade at the tip.
At 70ft the main rotor blade came into cabin and sliced the pilot into two!
Upper and lower body were tossed in different directions - 130 metres. A terrible accident which killed others as well.
Pilot had been used to mirror, but on this day........
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I've only ever used mirrors for sling work on Bell machines. I don't think I would be happy trying to maintain my EXTERNAL references with mirrors, during close-in hoist ops to either a deck or cliff scenario, and that begs the question, where would you then draw the line at the use of mirrors?
Couldn't agree more with that sentiment.
Mirrors have their use....but so does the guy in back.
For us ugly guys we dare not look in a mirror! Not if it is at 90 degress to our mis-shapen and scary features ...
But I have worked for years as a single pilot on SAR/HEMS operations using a mirror on an AS350.
Yes, the guy in the back is your Guiding Angel, but sometimes with an inflatable raft zipping around faster than he can talk; it does provide an anticipation factor.
But a useful secondary use was to check the release of sling and cargo on single pilot work.
Mirror mirror on the wall who is the ugliest of us all??
But I have worked for years as a single pilot on SAR/HEMS operations using a mirror on an AS350.
Yes, the guy in the back is your Guiding Angel, but sometimes with an inflatable raft zipping around faster than he can talk; it does provide an anticipation factor.
But a useful secondary use was to check the release of sling and cargo on single pilot work.
Mirror mirror on the wall who is the ugliest of us all??
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Originally Posted by robsrich
Mirror mirror on the wall who is the ugliest of us all??
Ask The question? ---- Here's one answer!
Mirror mirror on the wall who is the ugliest of us all?
In these glory threads some bounders on a line that’s long.
But should we shorten the shank with a bit of a haul,
We’d probably come to three reflections that belong.
Although I should say one’s still being debated,
By way of tote we should put it to the vote.
One of the mad smiff’s, vice-like and rob rotated;
Here goes I’ll punch the button and see if it’ll float.
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Not mirrors - cameras
With the introduction of Multifunction Displays in modern helicopters I think it would be better to connect these to video cameras or even IR sensors. This solution would avoid the drag increase caused by mirrors, and allow the information to be displayed closer to the pilots primary field of view.
For demanding operations like rough sea pick up at night from small vessels the rear crew will still have to be the pilot’s primary source for positioning information.
For demanding operations like rough sea pick up at night from small vessels the rear crew will still have to be the pilot’s primary source for positioning information.
About a decade ago I was involved with a trial of a low light TV camera mounted looking down.
Presentation was on a monitor up in the pilot's field of view. It had a cross hair type reference, it was easy to keep in the right place, as it was in the correct orientation; whereas a curved mirror needs some good interpertation.
Also, a mirror is not so good in low light conditions, and of course rain can unhelpful.
It seemed an excellent idea - but not sure what ever happened to the project?
Funny how the simple things in life never get a run to prove the critics wrong/right.
Presentation was on a monitor up in the pilot's field of view. It had a cross hair type reference, it was easy to keep in the right place, as it was in the correct orientation; whereas a curved mirror needs some good interpertation.
Also, a mirror is not so good in low light conditions, and of course rain can unhelpful.
It seemed an excellent idea - but not sure what ever happened to the project?
Funny how the simple things in life never get a run to prove the critics wrong/right.
The only good reason to carry a mirror is to check my handsome features before landing on and chatting to the girlies at the hospital.
