Gyrocopters/Autogyros
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Well, Aesir said it correctly. The McCulloch engine was powerful (90 hp, I think) but was indeed prone to failure. My friend had a number of failures, once landing in a parking lot next to a highrise. He was so nervous about flying with that engine that he never left the local airport which included a large grass infield. (The airport is located on an island with the lake on one side, Toronto on the other.)
However, in fairness to Bensen, I never heard him criticise the airframe itself. I understand Bensens are good machines and his seemed to be pretty solid.
Speaking of engines, my friend spoke very highly of a Volkswagen engine, which produced about 60 hp.. I've lost contact with him and I don't know if he ever replaced the McCulloch with one.
However, in fairness to Bensen, I never heard him criticise the airframe itself. I understand Bensens are good machines and his seemed to be pretty solid.
Speaking of engines, my friend spoke very highly of a Volkswagen engine, which produced about 60 hp.. I've lost contact with him and I don't know if he ever replaced the McCulloch with one.
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Rotornut,
the Mac engine are longer used as they have been. The actual engines offer is far better and reliable.
VW engines work very fine but they tend to disapear (heavy), in favour of the small rotax 2 stroke engines.
For example: take a rotax 670 skidoo engine, it is 105 HP for about 50-60 kgs, this engine is widely used in the hovercraft world and is powerfull, reliable, easy to overhaul. And there are many other engines available.
I see that when you think gyros, you stay in the Bensen idea.
In fact, all the atual frames and rotor designs come from dr Bensen , right.
Thanks
the Mac engine are longer used as they have been. The actual engines offer is far better and reliable.
VW engines work very fine but they tend to disapear (heavy), in favour of the small rotax 2 stroke engines.
For example: take a rotax 670 skidoo engine, it is 105 HP for about 50-60 kgs, this engine is widely used in the hovercraft world and is powerfull, reliable, easy to overhaul. And there are many other engines available.
I see that when you think gyros, you stay in the Bensen idea.
In fact, all the atual frames and rotor designs come from dr Bensen , right.
Thanks
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Zeeoo,
Not sure about their 'adopted' SparrowHawk design, but on their turbine Hawk 4 gyroplane Groen Bros actually use rotor pre-rotation to achieve a jump take-off. The use of tipjet-type designs at most small airfields would run the risk of a visit from the lynch mob of the local noise abatement society...
Cheers,
I/C
Not sure about their 'adopted' SparrowHawk design, but on their turbine Hawk 4 gyroplane Groen Bros actually use rotor pre-rotation to achieve a jump take-off. The use of tipjet-type designs at most small airfields would run the risk of a visit from the lynch mob of the local noise abatement society...
Cheers,
I/C
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IC
right about the tip jets thing, in city local airpports it can be a problem, not talking about the difficulty to develop a such system.. but, indeed, it has an interest on flight satefy by giving the rotor a residual power (nothing to do with a full powered tip jet rotor such as the SO-DJINN).
The hydraulic prerotators seem actually the most efficient, but not usable in-flight.
About Groen bros. i stated that they used ram tip jets, but i was wrong, i have read it on a news but it maybe for one of their "projects". But he system has been tried on other rotorcrafts
the Fairy ROTODYNE was an amazing bird.. a shame it has not been developped further.
cheers
right about the tip jets thing, in city local airpports it can be a problem, not talking about the difficulty to develop a such system.. but, indeed, it has an interest on flight satefy by giving the rotor a residual power (nothing to do with a full powered tip jet rotor such as the SO-DJINN).
The hydraulic prerotators seem actually the most efficient, but not usable in-flight.
About Groen bros. i stated that they used ram tip jets, but i was wrong, i have read it on a news but it maybe for one of their "projects". But he system has been tried on other rotorcrafts
the Fairy ROTODYNE was an amazing bird.. a shame it has not been developped further.
cheers
Avoid imitations
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Another advantage of Autogyros is that they don't generate anywhere near the amount of downwash that a similar sized heli does.
The Fairey Rotodyne was a beast well in advance of its time. I'm sure there is a lot of potential left in that concept, glad to see that Groen Bros might develop a similar aircraft one day.
One thought is that the tip-jet design might be improved with respect to noise pollution by using blade slots rather than a tubular jet (move more air but slower) and a modern, more powerful turbine driven aircraft could perhaps divert sufficient compressor air through the blade spar to power the rotor without combustion being necessary. The noisy "tip jets" could perhaps be retained as an emergency measure in the event of an engine failure so that an OEI landing could always be made to the hover. A very useful bonus of that method would be simple main blade de-icing.
That tilt-rotor thing suddenly looks far too complicated in comparison!
The Fairey Rotodyne was a beast well in advance of its time. I'm sure there is a lot of potential left in that concept, glad to see that Groen Bros might develop a similar aircraft one day.
One thought is that the tip-jet design might be improved with respect to noise pollution by using blade slots rather than a tubular jet (move more air but slower) and a modern, more powerful turbine driven aircraft could perhaps divert sufficient compressor air through the blade spar to power the rotor without combustion being necessary. The noisy "tip jets" could perhaps be retained as an emergency measure in the event of an engine failure so that an OEI landing could always be made to the hover. A very useful bonus of that method would be simple main blade de-icing.
That tilt-rotor thing suddenly looks far too complicated in comparison!
Last edited by ShyTorque; 12th Dec 2004 at 22:26.
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Shytorque !
did you spy me or what ??
i think exactly the same thing about tip jets :
1 - the nozzles must be a slot
2 - with new materials and some new types of nozzles (i have some ideas) , the noise could be lessen significantly
3 - it is a wonderful safety feature, and btw, should allow some hovering and jump take off... just imagine you can pilot a helicopter with a gyro license !
4 - yes i thought about de-icing also, i live in a cold country (not canada lol). a de-icing is very useful..and free with tip-jets.
5 - making a blade with tip-jet features is not really more complicated than a classical one ( i have plans)
6 - modern superchargers should allow enough pressure (airflow ?) to have a basic air generator if coupled to a piston engine (www.rotrex.com)
For a very light gyro, a 3 or 4 bladed rotor is possible at low cost/complication (dick degraw built one on his Gyrhino).
A small rotor with smaller blades sould be feasable with less mechanical constraints than a bigger one, playing with new composite and elastomeric materials.
Some will say the R&D costs will be to high...yes, talking for ONE prototype, but , even if the gyro market / helicopter is small, this improvement should fond a good echo.
check that : construction begins in january 2005.
http://zeeoo.free.fr/gyro/G1.jpg
cheers
did you spy me or what ??
i think exactly the same thing about tip jets :
1 - the nozzles must be a slot
2 - with new materials and some new types of nozzles (i have some ideas) , the noise could be lessen significantly
3 - it is a wonderful safety feature, and btw, should allow some hovering and jump take off... just imagine you can pilot a helicopter with a gyro license !
4 - yes i thought about de-icing also, i live in a cold country (not canada lol). a de-icing is very useful..and free with tip-jets.
5 - making a blade with tip-jet features is not really more complicated than a classical one ( i have plans)
6 - modern superchargers should allow enough pressure (airflow ?) to have a basic air generator if coupled to a piston engine (www.rotrex.com)
For a very light gyro, a 3 or 4 bladed rotor is possible at low cost/complication (dick degraw built one on his Gyrhino).
A small rotor with smaller blades sould be feasable with less mechanical constraints than a bigger one, playing with new composite and elastomeric materials.
Some will say the R&D costs will be to high...yes, talking for ONE prototype, but , even if the gyro market / helicopter is small, this improvement should fond a good echo.
check that : construction begins in january 2005.
http://zeeoo.free.fr/gyro/G1.jpg
cheers
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A 61-YEAR-OLD veteran flier died yesterday after his gyrocopter crashed into woodland
From The Northern Echo 16th December2004
Man dies as gyrocopter crashes
A 61-YEAR-OLD veteran flier died yesterday after his gyrocopter crashed into woodland.
The man, named as Dave Chaplin, from Borrowby, near Thirsk, North Yorkshire, was pronounced dead at the scene.
His gyrocopter crashed shortly after taking off from the Yorkshire Gliding Club's airfield at Sutton Bank, near Thirsk.
It came down just before 2pm in woodland near the White Horse monument, which lies directly below the airfield.
The crash site could be accessed only on foot but, according to North Yorkshire Police, firefighters and paramedics were at the scene quickly following the accident.
It is not yet known what caused the craft to crash.
The site has been cordoned off by police, who continued their investigations last night. The Air Accident Information Branch has been informed of the crash.
Mr Chaplin, who was married with grown-up children, was a former chairman of the Yorkshire Gliding Club and worked at the Sutton Bank airfield.
He was well respected in gliding circles and officials from the region's clubs were last night in shock at the news of his death.
A spokesman for North Yorkshire Police said: "The crash site, which we understand can only be accessed on foot, has been cordoned off pending closer examination.
"There seems to be quite a few witnesses to the accident."
A spokeswoman for North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue said: "The gyrocopter had just taken off from the top of Sutton Bank and crashed into the trees at Hood Grange Wood."
Gyrocopters were made famous when one was used by James Bond in the film You Only Live Twice.
Man dies as gyrocopter crashes
A 61-YEAR-OLD veteran flier died yesterday after his gyrocopter crashed into woodland.
The man, named as Dave Chaplin, from Borrowby, near Thirsk, North Yorkshire, was pronounced dead at the scene.
His gyrocopter crashed shortly after taking off from the Yorkshire Gliding Club's airfield at Sutton Bank, near Thirsk.
It came down just before 2pm in woodland near the White Horse monument, which lies directly below the airfield.
The crash site could be accessed only on foot but, according to North Yorkshire Police, firefighters and paramedics were at the scene quickly following the accident.
It is not yet known what caused the craft to crash.
The site has been cordoned off by police, who continued their investigations last night. The Air Accident Information Branch has been informed of the crash.
Mr Chaplin, who was married with grown-up children, was a former chairman of the Yorkshire Gliding Club and worked at the Sutton Bank airfield.
He was well respected in gliding circles and officials from the region's clubs were last night in shock at the news of his death.
A spokesman for North Yorkshire Police said: "The crash site, which we understand can only be accessed on foot, has been cordoned off pending closer examination.
"There seems to be quite a few witnesses to the accident."
A spokeswoman for North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue said: "The gyrocopter had just taken off from the top of Sutton Bank and crashed into the trees at Hood Grange Wood."
Gyrocopters were made famous when one was used by James Bond in the film You Only Live Twice.
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From the Department of Demented Designs
Gyrocopter Beats Helicopter into Submission with Corollas Prerotor 
Who will pick up the pen (or the sword) and fight back?
Who will pick up the pen (or the sword) and fight back?
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Dave, this idea has one merit : it came from your brain 
i cant comment that idea.... but i'm curious to see how it could be usefull.
i cant comment that idea.... but i'm curious to see how it could be usefull.
Last edited by zeeoo; 1st Feb 2005 at 21:34.
Thomas,
I understand your reaction. I guess you are picturing some of the current amateur, kit-built autogiro contraptions along side shiny new EC135's or A109's. That is certainly not what I meant and in that sense, of coarse my point doesn't stand up! However, if you look in detail at the aerodynamics of autogiros and the flight dynamics of autogiros then there are real benefits over conventional helicopters. The real problem is that in trying to harness all of these benefits you end up with a machine that is just as complex as a helicopter. This is the real problem because I just don't think that is worth it. If we are going to start looking to different configurations to make 'better' (read: faster, quieter & more cost effective) helicopters then I think the most fruitful approach is to look properly at co-axials and inter-meshers.
[Enter Dave, front-stage-left, on horseback, racing to the rescue...]
In reality I think that gyro's will only ever be 'fun' aircraft for the recreational enthusiast, for the reasons we have all discussed before.
Hope this helps
CRAN
I understand your reaction. I guess you are picturing some of the current amateur, kit-built autogiro contraptions along side shiny new EC135's or A109's. That is certainly not what I meant and in that sense, of coarse my point doesn't stand up! However, if you look in detail at the aerodynamics of autogiros and the flight dynamics of autogiros then there are real benefits over conventional helicopters. The real problem is that in trying to harness all of these benefits you end up with a machine that is just as complex as a helicopter. This is the real problem because I just don't think that is worth it. If we are going to start looking to different configurations to make 'better' (read: faster, quieter & more cost effective) helicopters then I think the most fruitful approach is to look properly at co-axials and inter-meshers.
[Enter Dave, front-stage-left, on horseback, racing to the rescue...
]In reality I think that gyro's will only ever be 'fun' aircraft for the recreational enthusiast, for the reasons we have all discussed before.
Hope this helps
CRAN
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a BO108, i don't know.... a kind of something flying maybe ? or a kind of secret codename ?
comparing apples with apples : what were the real last "mass-production" gyros ? la cierva ? lioret ?, after that ? nothing.
The fact is that people, armies etc accepted that an helicopter is expensive..
yes the EC135 is a beautyful million dollars machine, for that price it'better be nice and not hugly, indeed.
I am not trying to say a bensen equals a EC135, i just say that a basic gyro may fly better (exepted for hovering) than a basic helicopter (kit helicopter for example) at 1/3 the price.
I'm also still thinking that using a EC135 for some one-crew or 2-crew missions is a bit costy and that the gyro has a place where the helicopter is not justified.
I feel that there is a kind of ostracy from the helicopter world.. i feel that a rotary machine MUST be complicated, expensive and, overall , Dave will agree : HARD TO FLY.
CRAN : with great respect for you : the gyro flew pretty well before helicopters and if they are recreationnal machines, that's because they are left to the recreationnal pilots NOT because they can't be something else.. and because no company had a better look at them. I feel this view will last some times...
One thing is shure : you can solo someone after some hours of good training on a gyro, can you do that with an helicopter ?
thanks
comparing apples with apples : what were the real last "mass-production" gyros ? la cierva ? lioret ?, after that ? nothing.
The fact is that people, armies etc accepted that an helicopter is expensive..
yes the EC135 is a beautyful million dollars machine, for that price it'better be nice and not hugly, indeed.
I am not trying to say a bensen equals a EC135, i just say that a basic gyro may fly better (exepted for hovering) than a basic helicopter (kit helicopter for example) at 1/3 the price.
I'm also still thinking that using a EC135 for some one-crew or 2-crew missions is a bit costy and that the gyro has a place where the helicopter is not justified.
I feel that there is a kind of ostracy from the helicopter world.. i feel that a rotary machine MUST be complicated, expensive and, overall , Dave will agree : HARD TO FLY.
CRAN : with great respect for you : the gyro flew pretty well before helicopters and if they are recreationnal machines, that's because they are left to the recreationnal pilots NOT because they can't be something else.. and because no company had a better look at them. I feel this view will last some times...
One thing is shure : you can solo someone after some hours of good training on a gyro, can you do that with an helicopter ?
thanks
Red On, Green On
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Have a look at the excellent and fascinating post from Milt, a very experienced Australian TP, who writes about his experience flying gyros in the 60's.
His final paragraph on the subject:
Gyro-copters continue to be built by small bands of enthusiasts. Airworthiness authorities continue to grapple with safety aspects and have little effect on a steady string of crashes, more often than not, having fatal consequences for the would be aviator.
His final paragraph on the subject:
Gyro-copters continue to be built by small bands of enthusiasts. Airworthiness authorities continue to grapple with safety aspects and have little effect on a steady string of crashes, more often than not, having fatal consequences for the would be aviator.
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Artist,
you forgot to quote the previous sentence :
"A few months later this gyro-copter and its owner came to fatal termination performing some manoeuvre outside of its ill-defined flight envelope."
Very interesting experience, i feel that it shows the positive aspects of gyro flying.
Now, if someone gets out the flight envelope, may it be in a gyro, a helicopter or a bicycle : he may crash !
You can't say a B47 is not safe because a lot of crop sprayers had severe crashes ... you just can say they were close to the flight enveloppe boundaries.
The post you link to also , IMO, calls to not let the gyro to the only "small bands of enthusiasts"
thanks you
you forgot to quote the previous sentence :
"A few months later this gyro-copter and its owner came to fatal termination performing some manoeuvre outside of its ill-defined flight envelope."
Very interesting experience, i feel that it shows the positive aspects of gyro flying.
Now, if someone gets out the flight envelope, may it be in a gyro, a helicopter or a bicycle : he may crash !
You can't say a B47 is not safe because a lot of crop sprayers had severe crashes ... you just can say they were close to the flight enveloppe boundaries.
The post you link to also , IMO, calls to not let the gyro to the only "small bands of enthusiasts"
thanks you
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zeeoo,
I agree with CRAN. Gyro's are the rotorcraft of choice for the recreational few. This is because they are; inexpensive to buy, easy to build, simple to maintain, and exciting to fly. If the pure gyrocopter was competitive with the helicopter, there would be Carter and Groen Bros. products in the air, as we speak.
"One thing is sure : you can solo someone after some hours of good training on a gyro, can you do that with an helicopter ?"
In 1948 the symmetrical Kaman K-125 was flown by a housewife with only 2 hours of ground instruction and 36 minutes of dual instruction.
Dave
I agree with CRAN. Gyro's are the rotorcraft of choice for the recreational few. This is because they are; inexpensive to buy, easy to build, simple to maintain, and exciting to fly. If the pure gyrocopter was competitive with the helicopter, there would be Carter and Groen Bros. products in the air, as we speak.
"One thing is sure : you can solo someone after some hours of good training on a gyro, can you do that with an helicopter ?"
In 1948 the symmetrical Kaman K-125 was flown by a housewife with only 2 hours of ground instruction and 36 minutes of dual instruction.
Dave
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Dave,
i have read the Kaman story about that, do you mean she was soloed after 2 hours ? Can you solo every housewife after 2 hours ? it would be so nice.
"If the pure gyrocopter was competitive with the helicopter, there would be Carter and Groen Bros. products in the air, as we speak.
"
As far as i know, they are in the air.
i don't think carter and groen have the same means than Bell, Boeing, MDD and friends... have they ?
and, of course, helicopters manufacturers have no interest in developing a challenger to their main source of income....
BTW state depts buys proven solutions, not side-solutions, they are not really "pionneers".... if they were we could see a lot of coaxial or intermeshing rotors in the air, right ?
remember, in the automotive market, the electric engine was considered during a loooong long time as a chimaera... not speaking about the hybrid powers.
but now that there IS a need for that, mas production hybrid cars come in the market.
it is all about the MARKET and the psychological impressum.
i guess that if you were a buyer for a state dept. and i was a gyro manufacturer, i would have no chance to sell one just because, thinking like this, you wouldn't even give it a chance.
http://www.groenbros.com/
http://www.groenbros.com/archives/hawksnest/nest30.htm
from their sources : Direct Operating Costs (per hour) $158.72
i have read the Kaman story about that, do you mean she was soloed after 2 hours ? Can you solo every housewife after 2 hours ? it would be so nice.
"If the pure gyrocopter was competitive with the helicopter, there would be Carter and Groen Bros. products in the air, as we speak.
"
As far as i know, they are in the air.
i don't think carter and groen have the same means than Bell, Boeing, MDD and friends... have they ?
and, of course, helicopters manufacturers have no interest in developing a challenger to their main source of income....
BTW state depts buys proven solutions, not side-solutions, they are not really "pionneers".... if they were we could see a lot of coaxial or intermeshing rotors in the air, right ?
remember, in the automotive market, the electric engine was considered during a loooong long time as a chimaera... not speaking about the hybrid powers.
but now that there IS a need for that, mas production hybrid cars come in the market.
it is all about the MARKET and the psychological impressum.
i guess that if you were a buyer for a state dept. and i was a gyro manufacturer, i would have no chance to sell one just because, thinking like this, you wouldn't even give it a chance.
http://www.groenbros.com/
http://www.groenbros.com/archives/hawksnest/nest30.htm
from their sources : Direct Operating Costs (per hour) $158.72
Recidivist
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Gyrocopters
Never seemed to 'take off' (pardon the pun).
Is there some reason why such an apparently cheap and easy flying machine is not swarming round the skies?
Is there some reason why such an apparently cheap and easy flying machine is not swarming round the skies?