CFI loggin time question
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CFI loggin time question
a scenario:
a qualified and current FAA CFI sitting left-seat to a PPL(H) holder flying a G-reg R22 in the UK
can the CFI log the time as instruction? or does the machine have to be N-reg in order for CFI to be able to log it?
i cant find anything in the FAR about this
(the CFI also has a JAA PPL and a JAA radio licence but NOT a JAA CPL/instructor rating)
any ideas?
a qualified and current FAA CFI sitting left-seat to a PPL(H) holder flying a G-reg R22 in the UK
can the CFI log the time as instruction? or does the machine have to be N-reg in order for CFI to be able to log it?
i cant find anything in the FAR about this
(the CFI also has a JAA PPL and a JAA radio licence but NOT a JAA CPL/instructor rating)
any ideas?
Logging Time
I believe that you can only log that time (as PIC) if it was actual instruction of the private pilot (i.e. "dual" in what would othwerwise be a single pilot machine). And for it to be instruction, you would have to have a JAR FI qualification to be training on a G registred aircraft. Your FAA CFI may allow you to train someone on an N registred aircraft; but be careful to check the regs on whether remuneration is allowed and if a special dispensation required.
TT
TT
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Depends on the local countries regulations.
First of all, where in the FAR is an instructor required to log time as an instructor? Nowhere. So that's why it's not in the FAR.
No FAA rules prohibit you from giving instruction in an aircraft of non-US register. No rules prohibit you from giving instruction outside the US.
However, generally, you can only log instruction if you are authorised to give instruction. As you are flying a G-registered aircraft and flying in the UK, you must be bound by the rules of the country of registration. That means, if you are authorised to give instruction under the JAA system you could log it as instruction.
Just because you are sitting next to someone and you are a CFI doesn't mean that you can log that you are giving instruction.
I don't know enough about the JAA (maybe someone can help out here).
cl12pv2s
No FAA rules prohibit you from giving instruction in an aircraft of non-US register. No rules prohibit you from giving instruction outside the US.
However, generally, you can only log instruction if you are authorised to give instruction. As you are flying a G-registered aircraft and flying in the UK, you must be bound by the rules of the country of registration. That means, if you are authorised to give instruction under the JAA system you could log it as instruction.
Just because you are sitting next to someone and you are a CFI doesn't mean that you can log that you are giving instruction.
I don't know enough about the JAA (maybe someone can help out here).
cl12pv2s
Why not log the time?
Example...I run into a guy that has a DC-3 that he uses to haul herbal leafy material from sunny climes in Central/South America to Florida. I have no pilots license at all...zip, nada, nothing. However, I am a very clever fellow and decide to fly the Goon for him.
Over time I accumulate a load of cash....skin cancer... and a criminal record...donate all my hard earned cash to the Federal government in exchange for forty years free accomdation at a Club Fed somewhere.
During the flying portion of that career, I build 2,000 hours total time, 300 hours IFR, 1500 hours night, 1800 hours cross country, and 1975 hours PIC, 25 hours Dual and 1975 hours Solo.
What prevents me from "logging" every bit of it....after all I flew the Goon single pilot didn't I.
The FAA says I can log it...but I cannot use any of that time towards a certificate(license) or rating. They might consider taking action against me but I could still log the time.
What the CAA would say about the situation the original poster would be an all together different matter.
Example...I run into a guy that has a DC-3 that he uses to haul herbal leafy material from sunny climes in Central/South America to Florida. I have no pilots license at all...zip, nada, nothing. However, I am a very clever fellow and decide to fly the Goon for him.
Over time I accumulate a load of cash....skin cancer... and a criminal record...donate all my hard earned cash to the Federal government in exchange for forty years free accomdation at a Club Fed somewhere.
During the flying portion of that career, I build 2,000 hours total time, 300 hours IFR, 1500 hours night, 1800 hours cross country, and 1975 hours PIC, 25 hours Dual and 1975 hours Solo.
What prevents me from "logging" every bit of it....after all I flew the Goon single pilot didn't I.
The FAA says I can log it...but I cannot use any of that time towards a certificate(license) or rating. They might consider taking action against me but I could still log the time.
What the CAA would say about the situation the original poster would be an all together different matter.
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SASless, just as I suspected... 
The difference is (only) in the CFI logging time when they are not sole manipulator of the controls. For that to happen, they need to be giving instruction as an authorized instructor. A FAA instructor can indeed give FAA instruction anywhere in the world, and the person getting that instruction can use it to meet FAA training and experience requirements. Obviously, the JAA allows a similar thing, as Helicopter Adventures seems to turn out as many JAA pilots as they do FAA pilots. (This, of course is good for our balance of trade!)
The difference is (only) in the CFI logging time when they are not sole manipulator of the controls. For that to happen, they need to be giving instruction as an authorized instructor. A FAA instructor can indeed give FAA instruction anywhere in the world, and the person getting that instruction can use it to meet FAA training and experience requirements. Obviously, the JAA allows a similar thing, as Helicopter Adventures seems to turn out as many JAA pilots as they do FAA pilots. (This, of course is good for our balance of trade!)
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mmm... interesting. so maybe i (as the FAA CFI) can log it as an FAA instructor, and the student can log it as "FAA dual received" but the student cannot log it as "JAA dual received"
it seems a bit daft that i can't log it. i know i cant get paid for it as I am not affiliated to a JAA authorised training school (TRTO)
then again... the G-reg machine is not being operated under CFR Part 61
i'm confused!
it seems a bit daft that i can't log it. i know i cant get paid for it as I am not affiliated to a JAA authorised training school (TRTO)
then again... the G-reg machine is not being operated under CFR Part 61
i'm confused!
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the controller
Pull your head in dude, why should you log it when you are not flying and you are not giving instruction? The next step from here is logging time sitting in
23A in a 777.
I too am an instructor, but i don't log time every time i am sitting in the left seat of an aircraft with another pilot.
There are enough people in the industry with a bunch of dodgy hours in their logbooks as it is, do the right thing and don't log it.
Pull your head in dude, why should you log it when you are not flying and you are not giving instruction? The next step from here is logging time sitting in
23A in a 777.
I too am an instructor, but i don't log time every time i am sitting in the left seat of an aircraft with another pilot.
There are enough people in the industry with a bunch of dodgy hours in their logbooks as it is, do the right thing and don't log it.
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I fully agree with previous poster. You don't log dual when you're not giving proper instruction. This hasn't got anything to do with JAA or FAA.
Instruction is a profession, and approach it as such. The fact that you have to questions like these, isn't very professional in the first place.
Instruction is a profession, and approach it as such. The fact that you have to questions like these, isn't very professional in the first place.
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Originally Posted by HillerBee
Instruction is a profession, and approach it as such. The fact that you have to questions like these, isn't very professional in the first place.
Excellent point Hillerbee, as I agree that the time shouldn't be logged since no instruction is taking place. However, I think TC asking "questions like these" is professional. He wasn't sure about something and asked other professionals in an aviation forum. Seems like a valid approach, and beats the hell out of logging the time w/o even asking. And he's raised the subject so that others here (including dolts like me) can learn alongside him.
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CFI using G-BIRO
Gerhardt
I totally agree with you. If in doubt ALWAYS ask.
The Controller
Be careful how you use G-BIRO, or you could end up like another CFI who actually got a whole thread dedicated to him. Makes for interesting reading i thought.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+logging+hours
Regards
MD
I totally agree with you. If in doubt ALWAYS ask.
The Controller
Be careful how you use G-BIRO, or you could end up like another CFI who actually got a whole thread dedicated to him. Makes for interesting reading i thought.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...+logging+hours
Regards
MD
Two guys climb into a 'plane. They take off, climb and engage the autopilot.
5 hours later they wake up, disengage the autopilot and land.
One guy can log the time. One cannot. Go figure.
Experience is something that is held in high regard - in flying its about numbers in a logbook, for your car insurance its about how long you have been driving - both of which are quantitative rather than qualitative.
In short, its not how much experience you have but what you learned from that experience that matters.
The biggest difference for me between passing my CPL checkride and my first thousand hours wasn't that my flying skills got much better (pick ups and set downs will probably never be better than when you are a student or CFI) but that I became much more comfortable in the aircraft, meaning that I now devote a fraction of my concentration to flying leaving a lot more brain free, making for better ADM and situational awareness, which i believe is the key to becoming a safer pilot.
Any time you spend in a cockpit - looking at guages, sight pictures, listening to comms, judging approaches good or bad - adds to your experience
Whether or not you log it is a matter for your conscience.
5 hours later they wake up, disengage the autopilot and land.
One guy can log the time. One cannot. Go figure.
Experience is something that is held in high regard - in flying its about numbers in a logbook, for your car insurance its about how long you have been driving - both of which are quantitative rather than qualitative.
In short, its not how much experience you have but what you learned from that experience that matters.
The biggest difference for me between passing my CPL checkride and my first thousand hours wasn't that my flying skills got much better (pick ups and set downs will probably never be better than when you are a student or CFI) but that I became much more comfortable in the aircraft, meaning that I now devote a fraction of my concentration to flying leaving a lot more brain free, making for better ADM and situational awareness, which i believe is the key to becoming a safer pilot.
Any time you spend in a cockpit - looking at guages, sight pictures, listening to comms, judging approaches good or bad - adds to your experience
Whether or not you log it is a matter for your conscience.
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for everyones information...
i did not log it, as it would not be legal under JAA rules. even though i was in effect 'instructing' the person, - helping them startup, doing virtually all the radio in controlled airspace, and helping out a lot with a confined area landing and departure.
i did not log it, as it would not be legal under JAA rules. even though i was in effect 'instructing' the person, - helping them startup, doing virtually all the radio in controlled airspace, and helping out a lot with a confined area landing and departure.
